Any way to fix bad tuners?

basmicke · #1 11-10-2009, 08:33 PM

Does anybody know of a good way to fix old tuners that are starting to loose precision due to wear out of the space on the "tune wheel" ?
I have a really old p-bass and would like to keep the original tuners on. They're in good shape except for this. I always need to "fetch" the pitch from below when tuning and this is time consuming and hard to do on stage.
Is there some kind of material that I could add that would narrow the "wear out gap" and make tuning more precise?

Rick Auricchio · #2 11-10-2009, 08:45 PM

If you mean there is lash in the tuning gears (sloppiness), the only way would be to replace them. You may be able to get a set directly from the Fender Custom Shop.

Does your bass not stay in tune? It should be really close and not go out much.

basmicke · #3 11-10-2009, 08:53 PM

Ok, thanks. I'm Swedish so I really didn't know what to call the problem in english.
I bought replacements that are working fine but my bass is a P-bass from 1955 and the original tuners are in good shape and stay in tune once I've tuned, but tuning while playing on stage is a hassle. It would be really nice to be able to keep the original ones though. I'm just hoping there could be some cure by adding material to the "wheel" and that way narrow the gap that has become to big through the years causing the sloppiness.

T-Bird · #4 11-12-2009, 12:23 PM

Hi.

There is a way to tighten the gears on some machine heads, but it's a bit tricky and expensive.

The trick is to bore the wheel shaft (post) hole in the back plate slightly larger and locate it more towards to the worm. Then a precision washer/bushing is machined to fit both the new hole and the post shaft, a press fit to the plate is preferable. A special "steel-solder" can be used to soft solder the washer to the plate as the OD of the spacer may be close to the OD of the post and without soldering, it'll bind. If the difference in the diameters is large enough, the washer may act as a bushing without any ill effects.

I've done this to a copy, not an actual Fender machine head. The design is the same none the less.

BTW, not that it matters much, I never use a machine head to tune down to the pitch, always up. Never felt comfortable with it. Fine-tuning saddles are a different thing.

Regards
Sam

basmicke · #5 11-13-2009, 09:01 AM

Thanks for the tips. I'll give it a try an hope for the best.

Bassmickeyd · #6 11-13-2009, 09:13 AM

Older Fender tuners have always been sloppy. A well used bass can have near a quarter turn of loose play before it kicks in. I'd switch to a newer replacement tuner and keep the originals in a safe place. For histories sake.

basmicke · #7 11-13-2009, 09:39 AM

Yes. That's what I've done so far. The originals are pretty good though so I was thinking of putting them back on if I could get a little less sloppy.

Bassmickeyd · #8 11-13-2009, 09:52 AM

Personally I've given up on the old Fender tuners and sold them all on Ebay for much inflated American Yen. ...... I can live with old, basses, pickups, bridges and crackly pot but tuners, they've got to be good and work well. I like Fender basses and love to get them to the settle in stage where you tune them once a month, or at the beginning of every gig which some months is more often.

basmicke · #9 11-13-2009, 10:15 AM

Yes I agree. I have good replacements on and it's only because the bass is in original condition except for the tuners that I was hoping for a way to get the originals usable. I'll try the tips Ive got and if it works I'm happy, if not I'll keep the replacements.

T-Bird · #10 11-14-2009, 12:40 AM

Hi.

Another thing that came to my mind as I looked at some open tuners I have.

You can probably shim the wheel a bit higher to bring the teeth contact closer or flip the wheel if the gear is not machined on the center line of the wheel. That'll mess up the gear alignment, that's true, but in stationary "holding" gears it's no problem.

Are You absolutely sure that the wear is only in the gears?

An open design tuner has several places that can be loose and some of them are easy to tighten. The horse-shoe <-> worm shaft; The horse-shoes themselves in riveted designs; wheel <-> the splines/shaft; the wheel shaft <-> back plate and the worm spring if any.

As You have the tuners off, why not disassemble one (with exactly right phillips bit) and post detailed pics about the parts.

Regards
Sam

Stanley Design · #11 11-14-2009, 07:19 AM

I sincerely hope you didn't just sell your 1955 Fender's original tuners if the rest of the bass is also original. If the whole thing was original, it didn't belong on stage anyway IMO. Gigging something worth that much money takes a lot of guts.

basmicke · #12 11-14-2009, 07:32 AM

No. Didn't sell anything. I'm going to try putting a thin stripe of teflontape around the wheel. I'm a player and not a collector so first of all I want to play the instrument and I do so now. Never leaves it out of sight though. It gets to be a habit. My subjective feeling is that instruments deserves to be played on and that's the way to keep them alive and in shape. But of course I'm also aware of the value aspect of the instrument and will keep it either way.

dmusic148 · #13 11-14-2009, 07:41 AM

First, all tuners have some slop. So 'fetching' the pitch from below is actually quite normal and proper.
I suspect your problem is that the string pegs don't turn easily enough. When you tune down, the string tension alone should turn the pegs, keeping the gear lash loaded in one direction always.
So I'd remove the pegs, and clean them, and the bores they go into, with fine steel wool. Then apply a very small amount of grease and re-assemble.

basmicke · #14 11-14-2009, 08:02 AM

Yes I understand but my tuners problem is actually caused by the space between the wheel and axel getting to big, there's no doubt about that. I do agree that a little sloppiness there is common and not a big problem but what happens to me, and what I tried to describe as having to go back under the pitch and fetching the string is that the precision in tuning gets to bad and it's very hard to tune on stage in a playing situation. Excuse my not so god English in this matter.

Stanley Design · #15 11-14-2009, 08:11 AM

I understand your problem. There's too much backlash.

Backlash - The distance through which one part of connected machinery, as a wheel, piston, or screw, can be moved without moving the connected parts, resulting from looseness in fitting or from wear.

If it's because of wear, which it probably is, there's nothing you can do about it. Is it possible to just tune before hand? Do the tuners have problems with keeping tune as well? I usually only have to tune once per gig...

Munjibunga · #16 11-14-2009, 09:11 AM

Dunno about the tuning machines, but I always tune from below the pitch. It's just a habit.

basmicke · #17 11-14-2009, 09:22 AM

I'm going to try adding some teflontape and if that doesn't work I'll probably stick to the replacements I have. I know how to tune, been playing for 35 years but it's hard with the sloppy tuners to get the right pitch, usually nothing happens first and the next thing you know pitch is too high. Thanks for all your tips and inputs. It's great with a forum like this to share knowledge and experiences. As you say there's probably nothing I can do to fix the old ones but I just want to make really sure of that before I put them in storage mode. :-)