basses for newbies (SX batch build thread) Part 2

[chunger]

Originally Posted by darknecrotic

Liar.

I tell it as I see it. This topic has been discussed to death with those who religiously claim miracles and those who religiously claim no effects with threaded inserts. Some have performed frequency response measurements before and after. I have not nor have I ever claimed anything except what my ears and fingers tell me which ironically is what I primarily use to evaluate almost everything I do on basses. . . and, I will continue to apply threaded inserts because I feel the benefits far outweigh the very low cost of the parts involved.

With each new build, I gain a little more insight and pass on the things I discover. Nobody is forcing you to put threaded inserts in your bass. I posted my findings on #2 when the events were still fresh in my mind and continue to install threaded inserts on all of my builds unless it would significantly de-value a collectible instrument.

My opinion is the threaded inserts play a significant role in the tone of my instruments. Disagree if you want, but you will need a lot more than what you're standing on to come in out of the blue and attack my character or insinuate that I intend to deceive people with lies and fabrications.

There are probably a lot of folks who disagree with many of the specific decisions I make about bass mods (grading, pickup choices, German fret machines, string choices, star grounding, nut material, headstock shape, etc., etc.), but I do my best to let people play the instruments, see the process, and listen to the sound clips to make their own more-informed decisions about what they want in a bass.

[mongo2]

I've used threaded inserts in several basses with varied results. Some demonstrated what I consider an improvement in tone, other's not so much. My theory is it depends on the quality of the instrument and the original neck attachment. Some may benefit more from inserts than others.

[dralionux]

Originally Posted by darknecrotic

Prove he's not.

I don't know if Chung is a liar or not.
That's why I ask you to prove it.

[selowitch]

Any chance the "liar" comment was made in jest? Hard to tell from here.

My 2¢ on threaded inserts is that at the very least it makes removal and replacement of the neck less damaging that it otherwise would be. It does also seem to improve the coupling of the neck and the body for a bit more sustain and resonance. It's a subtle but important effect, and it makes a whole lot of sense for lower-end instruments in particular, such as SXes, Squiers, and MIM Fenders who may sometimes lack that magical character that a bit of Chunger TLC helps bring out.

Bear in mind that it's not the threaded inserts in isolation that achieve the "Chunger effect," but rather his holistic approach to his instruments. The careful fret and nut filing; the bridge adjustments; the special pickups; and shielding and new pots; and careful tweaking of the truss rod when appropriate all contribute to the overall experience. I haven't played a Chunger bass yet, but I can only imagine that with this level of care these axes must sing like birds.

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by mongo2

I've used threaded inserts in several basses with varied results. Some demonstrated what I consider an improvement in tone, other's not so much. My theory is it depends on the quality of the instrument and the original neck attachment. Some may benefit more from inserts than others.

After chunger's thread I started putting inserts in my SX collection. It started with my Ursa that I have both fretted and fretless necks for. I wanted to be able to change the necks without worrying about wood screws stripping out. But the change in tone was also dramatic. So ALL the SX basses got inserts the change in ALL of them was dramatic. Then I decided to do my MIM Fender Deluxe V. And it had a dramatic change for the better as well. And finally I finished up with my OLP Stingray 5. Turned a really nice playing bass into a great one!

So there is no doubt in my mind that with the lower priced basses the inserts really do bring a quality tone and feel as well to the bass. However, I decided NOT to do my G&L Tribute or my "real" MIA G&L. For one thing it has a 6 bolt neck done very nicely with metal ferrules under the screw heads etc. I just couldn't see where inserts would tighten that neck any more than it was already. And it STILL plays just great. I just gave the neck screws a tiny extra twist just for drill and that was it.

So I have to agree with you. The more expensive the bass and the better the neck mount the less the inserts will do. But I CAN say for certain that down at the SX, OLP and MIM Fender level inserts made a highly obvious improvement in the sound and feel of the bass. And by "feel" I mean that some how after you put in the inserts, the bass just feels in your hands like it cost a lot more than it did before! But I don't think putting inserts into some high end boutique with a million neck screws will be anything but a waste of time unless you plan to take the neck on and off a lot.

Which is my OTHER insert thing. To put 4-40 machine screw inserts on all the battery plates and control covers on ALL my basses. Quite frankly I'm a bit tired of these stripping out and having to deal with toothpicks and glue all the time! Inserts solves it forever. Just finished cover inserts on my MIA G&L today! And that one is worse because the battery is under there. What are these people thinking?

[chunger]

Off to NAMM Hall A Booth #6894 (Faital Pro Speakers)

poke by and say hi. I'm dragging along #4 and #9, and prototype amp system is up and running. More to report prior to the show from tonight's tests, but I won't be online 'til later tonight.

If I'm not at the booth, my card should be closeby with my cell number on it.

[MglMatador]

When are the prototype B jazz pickups going to be available?

[chunger]

Still don't have the new prototypes in hand yet. I'll test and get sound clips as soon as I get them. I won't, however sell a pickup until I'm completely happy with it. I have one functional jazz pickup (the one that went into bass #17) which was the NJ4 with longer magnets. I was able to sit with Diz who bought 17 at NAMM, and he was able to give me a long-term report as well as test the new prototype pickup which is voiced aggressively like the stock SX pickup. What I learned is that some folks like Diz may very strongly prefer the much smoother and more traditional sounding pickup.

And, another update from NAMM. . . perhaps the new owner of #19? Jeff is one of the 2 Jeffs responsible for Babicz FCH and a great bass player.



note: photo not mine. . . those iphones are sure getting good though

[Joshua]

Good grief people, here too?

Make me work, and I'll always err on the side of caution. Rule #1 = respect. Let's all show some while we participate here...

[MglMatador]

Originally Posted by chunger

Still don't have the new prototypes in hand yet. I'll test and get sound clips as soon as I get them. I won't, however sell a pickup until I'm completely happy with it.

That's good to know. I re-wired my SX Jazz to series mode, and I've been hitting the 'SX effect' in full force. It sounds like a 'splatting' on the attack of certain notes (mostly on the E string). It gets better lowering the pickup on the E string side, however then I run into string balance issues. In dropped-D, it's even worse (it sounds like extremely heavy compression kicking in changing the initial attack to more of a 'thump'.....very hard to describe). If you back off how hard you hit the string, it goes away, however a lot of the bite goes away too (that's just my style too...with two fingers together for each note attack). I've also lowered the action a bit to bring a little more fret noise which helps accentuate the bite, but makes the SX effect more noticeable.

However I LOVE the stock SX tone: it's very growly and aggressive and mid-forward, which is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm hoping that the prototype B's get close to what I am looking for. I was close to getting SD Quarter Pounders, but since I high-pass my mixes at 80Hz a lot of that low end would be lost on me. Getting an aggressive mid-forward sound is like 'pre-EQ'ing' my sound to where I don't need to high pass anymore.

[chunger]

the prototype is close and certainly lives within the same general vibe as the stock SX pickup. No other pickup sounds like that because I don't think anyone else is doing a short coil jazz pickup with super-thin winding wire.

I'm pretty confident the next iteration will be dialed. The only issue I have with it is extended treble. Input from NAMM is mixed. A lot of folks like it because you can get something functionally very similar to an active slap tone out of it in a passive setup. Other folks find it a little too open on top and end up cranking down the tone pot a lot. . .80-100%.

I'm looking to have something workable for a wide range of players. A slight tweak in magnet and winding will probably get me there.

[chunger]

Back to posting. . . a few things are hanging me up these days not the least of which is a major A/V install that should hopefully be wrapping up shortly if I can get the control system up and running.

News from the factory I've been talking with for the last 6+ months is not good. They are 40 employees short, and their major buyers just requested to increase the quantity of their orders at NAMM. This means the earliest possible production date for my instruments would be July. I have never been able to establish a fixed, non-floating date for my production run.

I had a chance to closely look at a few manufacturers at NAMM, and within my price window, none of the instruments measured on par with what I have seen from the factory I've been talking to especially on the fretwork. They really have their production dialed in.

So, this means a couple of things. One of the reasons I wanted to go with this particular factory was the fretwork was good enough out of the box for me to sell in good conscience to a newbie even though I still maintain that PLEK or hand-level by a competent tech is the ideal way to go.

But, it's of no consequence if I can't get instruments made. 2 other reasonable options might be worth following up on.

1. Un-Sung Musical Intruments Co., Ltd. based in Korea with option to manufacture in their Korean or Chinese affiliate factory (different price/quality). These folks make the Agile line of guitars that Rondo music sells, and they were some of the better instruments I put hands on at NAMM. The fretwork is not as dialed as I would like, but better than most others at the show. Price especially for Korean factory product is more than what I'm currently looking at.

http://www.unsung.co.kr/

2. Eden & Eden Company based in China.. . a few other folks on forum have in the past used parts from this company, but it seems Q/C has been hit and miss. . . I guess Q/C with the current SX's I'm working with has also been a bit hit and miss. The quality of the Eden samples I put hands on were ok if you can live with a few fret leveling problems.

The advantage of Eden is the US liason speaks English very well, so communication would be easier for me. Where speaking with the folks at Un-Sung was difficult. I do, however have friends local who can translate and write emails in Korean for me which would probably be very helpful. Also, the US liason for the company I'm presently in conversations with has offered to generate full production drawing sets for me of my basses as currently spec'd so that any factory can manufacture for me.

I think my plan of action at this point is to follow up with Un-Sung Musical Instruments, Co for the 1st production run while keeping the door open on my option A factory that is oversold. It may actually be to my advantage to have 2 discrete sources for base instruments. But, I think it's time to move ahead with the project.

Speaking of delays, I have not received pickups from Nordstrand yet. I will check in with them again about my order which contains 4 and 5 string jazz pickup prototypes as well as re-supplies for my custom p-bass pickups.

Suggestions welcome on factory options. There are a couple of different paths I can take for selling that I'm considering.

1. Still make base "Chunger Standard" instruments available "right off the boat".
2. PLEK all and price accordingly.
3. PLEK as upgrade option on "chunger standard"

(note: I'll still be building out fully with all the upgrades on the "modified" line as described in this thread)

For me it's hard to tell what folks will want more, but my gut says a low-priced base instrument on which to mod and then a one-stop source for all necessary parts to do-it-yourself is probably where the bulk of the demand is. With the exception of fret work (most folks are scared of that).

[Aircooled]

Originally Posted by chunger

1. Still make base "Chunger Standard" instruments available "right off the boat".

That is what I'm most interested in. Sort of a Rondo Music-esque situation on a smaller scale with a very hands-on and proactive approach to the instruments by the owner. And honestly, price is (most) everything.

Originally Posted by chunger

For me it's hard to tell what folks will want more, but my gut says a low-priced base instrument on which to mod and then a one-stop source for all necessary parts to do-it-yourself is probably where the bulk of the demand is. With the exception of fret work (most folks are scared of that).

Nailed it right there.

But the key is to do what makes sense for you in both effort and returns. Good luck in whichever path you choose. We're all anxiously awaiting something, but not at the cost of your visions.

[diehard70]

sub'd. Now to go back and read the last 35 pages. Thanks, BTW and nice work.

[KingRazor]

Chunger's work here has inspired me to get my own SX and do my own modding to it. College students don't have the easiest time affording things like musical instruments, so we often get stuck with cheap junk. Chunger has proved that it is entirely possible to turn an SX into a professional quality instrument, so that's what I'm going to attempt to do.

I would just wait until Chunger's production batch, as I'm sure they will out-do the SX, but I want the experience I'll gain from modding one myself.

[tooloudalex]

Whew. Finally caught up!

Defiantly support what your doing here chunger, im looking forward to your line coming out, i might have to drop the cash and get a modified chunger when they are available :P

[chunger]

Ok. . . sorry for the long delay, but Nordstrand recently got my new prototypes to me after a few personnel re-shuffling issues were sorted out.

Time to fire up the Chinese labor camp again!



Things are a bit messy, but i was excited to get going again. Here is what I got this batch from Nordstrand.



2x NJ4SE sets one with 4 wires to do push/pull push/pull push/pull with (it's expensive but popular). I like to have one of those on hand at all times and the SE's have been a proven performer.

2x custom single coil prototypes

1x 5 string single coil prototype

3x custom "chunger" p-bass pups because I ran out from my previous mass order.

Gotta run for a sec. . . "work" intrudes. more to come soon.

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by chunger

Do some of those Nordies come with white covers? Or is that just some kind of wax?

[chunger]

Originally Posted by selowitch

Do some of those Nordies come with white covers? Or is that just some kind of wax?

These are packaged for manufacturers/luthiers so they do not have the pretty boxes included. The holes in the pickup covers are laser cut because Nordstrand works with a variety of magnet diameters and patterns, and the white is a self-adhesive protective paper that is put on the covers prior to cutting. Residual smoke or burn marks are visible on the paper. Once removed, the covers are very clean looking and the holes very precise.

[chunger]

Here is the 5 string pickup prototype. . . coil depth is .350" to match the stock SX pups. Also, the string spacing on SX is ~16.5mm. Narrower than standard by a significant amount. These pickups were made with 17mm string spacing to account for this.



Getting ready to take the stock pups out.





Notice this is some earlier work. I've streamlined my wire management since, but the wiring scheme here is still solid and will last darn near forever, so no need to change it.

And then, I hit a snag. . . typical 5 string pickups use bridge sized pickups on both. I was not aware of this distinction. SX uses neck sized pickup on the neck position, and I did not specify to Carey what to do on this detail. . . so, the current neck pickup does not fit.



Not knowing how long it might be before I can get a replacement made, I buttoned everything back up with just the rear pickup because I like storing basses tuned up to pitch with the truss rod properly adjusted. . . either that or with strings off and truss rod in the neutral (loose) position.



The folks at Nordstrand are already on it, so hopefully I should get this 5 string setup tested soon. The bridge pup sounds good btw