Bolt on neck isn't staying in!

[kelto]

i have a bolt-on neck style bass guitar (a ibanez i bought at a pawnshop so i could have a 5 string) but the neck keeps poping off and i know why, its because the the top 2 screws holding it in aren't holding anymore, they have becom stripped somehow and the screws aren't wide enough to hold it in, should i use woodglue and a dowel to fill the holes and then redrill the screws in or should i get slightly wider screws? if either one of those ar ehte correct ways to fix it or if im wrong entirely could someone please tell me?

[Darkstrike]

Originally Posted by kelto

i have a bolt-on neck style bass guitar (a ibanez i bought at a pawnshop so i could have a 5 string) but the neck keeps poping off and i know why, its because the the top 2 screws holding it in aren't holding anymore, they have becom stripped somehow and the screws aren't wide enough to hold it in, should i use woodglue and a dowel to fill the holes and then redrill the screws in or should i get slightly wider screws? if either one of those ar ehte correct ways to fix it or if im wrong entirely could someone please tell me?

Dowel with glue, and redril is exactly right.

[Back'N'Black]

See if you cant find a hardwood dowel

[Chasarms]

You can fill it and redrill it, but if it were me, I would install threaded inserts and attach the neck with machine screws. It is a superior way to attach the neck anyway, and since you are doing repair anyway, why not?

[walterw]

drilling and then filling with endgrain dowel like you find at the hardware store is not the way to do it! it makes for a weak joint.

unless you can find or make cross-grain plugs (where the plug grain runs the same way as the neck wood's grain), your correct fix is also your easiest one*:

first take the neck off.

get some wooden toothpicks, and slather them thickly with titebond-type wood glue. not epoxy, not superglue, not (god-forbid) gorilla glue, wood glue.

stuff them into the holes, cut the ends off that are sticking out, then slap the neck back on and crank the screws back in right away, while the glue is still wet.

this will force the new wood into what's left of the threads in the old wood, and the whole thing will dry while being nicely "clamped" by the screws into perfectly-formed screw threads that are every bit as strong as the wood was originally.



*now this assumes you haven't been stuck with one of ibanez's bizarre "luthite" basses, where the body is not even wood but some chalky white composite stuff that smells like mothballs.

if so, threaded inserts and machine screws might be your only option.

[rllefebv]

I am having this same problem with a Fender-style neck... Those of you who suggested threaded inserts, what bolt size would be best?

-robert

[Pilgrim]

Check this thread at the Unofficial Warmoth site - it has great info:
http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=5997.0

There is additional information both on the inserts to use AND how to install them at this thread, linked in the final post of the thread above:
http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=163.0

EXCELLENT information - the best discussion on the topic I've seen. The recommendation seems to be for inserts using no larger than a 9/23" drill and having a 10/24 thread.

In reading the thread, here's a summary of some points I learned. You need to keep in mind:

- You need a drill press to drill the holes at precisely 90 degrees to the neck; hand held drills won't cut it
- You must consider and measure so that you don't drill into the fretboard from the underside
- Holes must be placed to avoid the truss rod
- Holes must NOT be at the edge of the neck or the wood will probably split. Minimum 3/8" spacing from the edge of the neck is recommended.

[fenderfunker]

I would put the neck in the pocket and drill through the holes in the back of the body, where the plate goes. Just make sure the drill bit is the same lenght as the screws. That way, you will get 90 degrees and correct hole placement. Also, countersink the holes, or the screws won't go all the way home, making the neck loose.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by fenderfunker

I would put the neck in the pocket and drill through the holes in the back of the body, where the plate goes. Just make sure the drill bit is the same lenght as the screws. That way, you will get 90 degrees and correct hole placement. Also, countersink the holes, or the screws won't go all the way home, making the neck loose.

You are making the assumption that the holes in the body were drilled at 90 degrees to the body, which is not necessarily true. Further, you would only be able to use the holes in the body as accurate drill guides if the drill bit were exactly the same diameter as those holes - AND if the drill bit would not remove wood from the holes in the body, causing the drill bit to move around. Neither is true. Sorry, that's not a good option.

I have some personal experience in that regard and can report it just doesn't work very well. Also, the threads I linked above make the point that depth of drilling is important - and it would be extremely difficult to accurately control the depth of drilling working through the body. If you use a drill press, you can use a drill stop on the bit, use tape on the bit to mark a measured depth of drilling, or you can set the drill press plunge to the needed depth. All of these are more accurate than what you could achieve drilling through the body.

ALso - if you use threaded inserts, you should install a neck plate on the back side of the body if there isn't one already. The threaded inserts allow the machine screws used to hold the neck to be turned much tighter than the normal wood screws - they should not be tightened against the body wood. At the very least, you would need to install stout washers under the heads of the machine screws used.

I'm not trying to be a butt about this - I'm just trying to make the point that this is a precision operation and you can easily damage the neck if you are off-target or mis-measure at all.

If you don't have a drill press, I'd suggest drilling for dowels with the greatest accuracy you can achieve, gluing the dowels in and then using standard screws. There are fewer ways to go wrong and this system really does work OK.

A note - if you drill and use dowels, make sure to score a couple of grooves along the sides of the dowels to let glue escape when you press the dowel into the hole. That's an easy detail to miss!

[fenderfunker]

You are correct. This is not the place for 'bush carpentry'. I was, however, very careful not to drill through the fretboard. A 52 year old man crying is so undignified. A plate and new screws are very cheap on 'evilbay' too.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

If you don't have a drill press, I'd suggest drilling for dowels with the greatest accuracy you can achieve, gluing the dowels in and then using standard screws. There are fewer ways to go wrong and this system really does work OK.

A note - if you drill and use dowels, make sure to score a couple of grooves along the sides of the dowels to let glue escape when you press the dowel into the hole. That's an easy detail to miss!

+1, but again, end-grain dowel = fail, while cross-grain "plug" = win

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by fenderfunker

You are correct. This is not the place for 'bush carpentry'. I was, however, very careful not to drill through the fretboard. A 52 year old man crying is so undignified. A plate and new screws are very cheap on 'evilbay' too.

I hear you! A 59-year-old man crying is even less dignified. Especially in my cold garage where the shop is located. Makes my nose run.

I have an Epi neck that needs the screw holes repaired, and I'm reflecting on options.

Today I went to ACE Hardware and discovered they carry "insert nuts" which are the devices we're talking about. I bought four each for 8/32 screws and for 10/32 screws. (About $2.50 total.)

I noted that ACE also carries chrome-plated, round-head bolts that drive with hex keys. The 10/32 bolts come in lengths from 3/4" to 1.5" in quarter-inch increments. The longest chrome-plated 8/32 they carry is 1", which I don't think is long enough for my application. However, if you stop using screws, you have to have something to hold the neck on - and chrome-plated round head bolts would be attractive and work with a neck plate.

The size of the insert nuts for the 10/32 bolts concerns me, so I'm going to reflect carefully about how close the holes are to the edge of the neck. The teeth on the inserts would be within about .3 inch of the edge. I guess one must assume that the existing screw holes are acceptable guides to hole placement. To drill without using them as centers, one would have to plug them first, then re-drill off-center from the original holes.

I suppose that the bottom line is that if one drills for the inserts and they don't work out, they can be removed and you can go back to the dowel/plug method. Or, I may just put the inserts into the parts bin and go to Home Depot to get cross-grain plugs.

[Pilgrim]

Wanna see one way to fix it? Here's my brand-new thread on installing insert nuts:
Installing threaded inserts (insert nuts) on a neck (long)

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by walterw

titebond-type wood glue. not epoxy, not superglue, not (god-forbid) gorilla glue, wood glue.

OT: I'd never heard about "Gorilla Glue" until a week ago when a bottle appeared in our studio. What's the deal w/ that stuff?

[Darkstrike]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Wanna see one way to fix it? Here's ny brand-new thread on installing insert nuts:
Installing threaded inserts (insert nuts) on a neck (long)

Very, very cool.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Hoover

OT: I'd never heard about "Gorilla Glue" until a week ago when a bottle appeared in our studio. What's the deal w/ that stuff?

Gorilla Glue is an epoxy-type glue that foams and expands during curing. Sometimes it expands a LOT - and in doing so, it forces parts apart, or just makes a big mess. Once cured, it is very difficult to remove.

It's very handy stuff in the right application, but musical instrument repair is not one of its most appropriate uses. It takes some practice to learn how to use the right amount and avoid foamy goo coming out the joints of the repair.

Originally Posted by Darkstrike

Very, very cool.

Thanks kindly. Thought it might help others.

[Marco A. Mayer]

You should probably rotate your basses out of the cases more often

[hdracer]

Hi, If anybody needs the screws let me know. I have countersunk allen so you can use your stock neck plate I also have button head screws if you don't need the countersink. I have them in chrome and stainless steel. I prefer stainless because I find the chrome messes up when you crank down on the screw. I just run the stainless head on my buffing wheel and they shine up. Just let me know the length you need. I can also make custom ones that will work with straplocks if yours mount on the neck plate

[Clark Dark]

Originally Posted by walterw

drilling and then filling with endgrain dowel like you find at the hardware store is not the way to do it! it makes for a weak joint.

unless you can find or make cross-grain plugs (where the plug grain runs the same way as the neck wood's grain), your correct fix is also your easiest one*:

first take the neck off.

get some wooden toothpicks, and slather them thickly with titebond-type wood glue. not epoxy, not superglue, not (god-forbid) gorilla glue, wood glue.

stuff them into the holes, cut the ends off that are sticking out, then slap the neck back on and crank the screws back in right away, while the glue is still wet.

this will force the new wood into what's left of the threads in the old wood, and the whole thing will dry while being nicely "clamped" by the screws into perfectly-formed screw threads that are every bit as strong as the wood was originally.


*now this assumes you haven't been stuck with one of ibanez's bizarre "luthite" basses, where the body is not even wood but some chalky white composite stuff that smells like mothballs.

if so, threaded inserts and machine screws might be your only option.

+ 100 on that as the first option

[walterw]

Originally Posted by walterw

*now this assumes you haven't been stuck with one of ibanez's bizarre "luthite" basses, where the body is not even wood but some chalky white composite stuff that smells like mothballs.

if so, threaded inserts and machine screws might be your only option.

wait, scratch that, the neck would still be wood, which is what we're concerned with.

never mind this last part, you didn't read it, these aren't the droids you're looking for...