Bow and distance different between strings and frets

[Bandeira]

Hello talkbass experts...

I've recently put some 65-130 strings on a 4 stringed bass so I could get both comfortable playing of 4 strings and still have a B string...
I've set all my previous bass up but this time as I was going a bit non-tradicional I am checking setup and measuring things on a daily basis...

I've installed the strings and started tuning, setting bridge height, tuning, truss rod (not much was needed, lets say about a quarter of a turn) a tuning... I've came up with a decent setup...

When getting more and more into fine adjustments, when playing normally, the B string buzzes around the 5th fret and the D strings buzzes around the 9th or 10th fret... For me this is news, as each symptom excessive relief and the other just the opposite...

but when I press the strings in the first and last (24th) fret I can seen that distance from string to 9th fret is about:

Please read below - I was misreading distance... sorry for that

that means the neck is twisting, right?
I know the higher strings produce more tension than lower ones... But is this a moment I should get my bass back to stock EADG tuning or this different is about normal... due to tension difference?

Thanks

[tobie]

Originally Posted by Bandeira

When getting more and more into fine adjustments, the B string buzzes around the 5th fret and the D strings buzzes around the 9th or 10th fret... Thanks

Buzzing on open string? If so, don't get too technical about it - simply lift them at the bridge (assuming that your axe allows bridge adjustments).

Your difference in space between the strings & frets might simply indicate the need for a good 'fret job' (by a pro).

[Bandeira]

Not buzzing on open string... just regular playing...

I just am afraid that my neck might be twisting and if I should let go the idea of having it on BEAD tuning...

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Bandeira

Hello talkbass experts...

I've recently put some 65-130 strings on a 4 stringed bass so I could get both comfortable playing of 4 strings and still have a B string...
I've set all my previous bass up but this time as I was going a bit non-tradicional I am checking setup and measuring things on a daily basis...

I've installed the strings and started tuning, setting bridge height, tuning, truss rod (not much was needed, lets say about a quarter of a turn) a tuning... I've came up with a decent setup...

When getting more and more into fine adjustments, when playing normally, the B string buzzes around the 5th fret and the D strings buzzes around the 9th or 10th fret... For me this is news, as each symptom excessive relief and the other just the opposite...

but when I press the strings in the first and last (24th) fret I can seen that distance from string to 9th fret is about:

0.8mm in D string
0.5mm in B string

that means the neck is twisting, right?
I know the higher strings produce more tension than lower ones... But is this a moment I should get my bass back to stock EADG tuning or this different is about normal... due to tension difference?

Thanks

First things first: It is doubtful that your neck is twisting. The difference (.012") between the bass and treble sides is very small.

A guitar neck with a truss rod is a balanced system. As long the load on the neck can be counteracted by the truss rod there is no reason to reverse the course. Virtually every neck (system) today can support the load generated by a four string set .065-.130. Think about it for a second. What is the difference between that load and the one placed on a five string neck? At most it is roughly 25% greater than a four string. But there is not really that much more lumber in the five string neck. The truss rod is usually the same size for both necks. Your neck can handle the load of the strings.

What is curious is the amount of relief in the neck. .8mm is roughly .032". Typically relief should be somewhere in the neighborhood of .3mm or .012" +/- a few thousandths depending on the neck.

Individual fret buzzes can occur for any number of reasons. Sometimes a lot of relief can highlight a high fret or two. Hard to diagnose without having the bass on the bench with some straight edges.

Try this: Adjust the relief to ~.3mm/.012". Set up the bridge for normal string height and rough in the intonation. See how it plays. Go on a buzz hunt if you must but remember if it does not buzz through the amp it does not buzz.

Let us know the results.

[Bandeira]

I agree with everything you said...
I am just worried because I am removing one high-tension string from the higher side and adding a low-tension string to the other side...

I just have to apologize for the numbers i've posted... I've been setting my basses from "feeling" for years and years and eyeballed the distance...

Now I got myself a decent set of measuring tools (dunno the name in english, but I use to measure automotive valve clearance and spark plug gap) and the real measures are:

High side (D string) 0.40mm
Low Side (B string) 0.25mm

but I am getting buzz in the mid-beginning of the neck in the B string... part from it being kind of floppy (34 scale bass and it was not designed for B strings - but let's no get into this subject...) and part from it being kinda low in the mid-neck area.
But if I set my B string to 0.3 or 0.35 I'd get about .5 in the D-string...

Cheers and thanks for the help!

[tZer]

I'm not sure, but I think the measurements he's providing indicate 'string height' - not relief.

Bandeira - exactly how are you getting these measurements? Tell us the process you are following to determine these values.

Are you clamping the strings with a capo at the first fret, pressing down the string at the last and and measuring the gap at the fret in the middle ( 7th, 8th or so)?

[Bandeira]

Originally Posted by Bandeira

...
but when I press the strings in the first and last (24th) fret I can seen that distance from string to 9th fret is about:
...
Thanks

Yes I am, as quoted from the OP.

[tZer]

Sorry - speed reading...

[tobie]

Originally Posted by Bandeira

I just am afraid that my neck might be twisting and if I should let go the idea of having it on BEAD tuning...

It's hard to imagine that the tension of BEAD will be that much higher than EADG, relative to the total to the strength of the neck (it's like you picking up a 5kg bag of potatoes vs a bag of 5.5kg).

I think we sometimes get too technical about simple things (i.e. exact string heights). I'd try a bit more relief (via truss rod) and then bring all strings down a bit on the bridge.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Bandeira

I agree with everything you said...
I am just worried because I am removing one high-tension string from the higher side and adding a low-tension string to the other side...

I just have to apologize for the numbers i've posted... I've been setting my basses from "feeling" for years and years and eyeballed the distance...

Now I got myself a decent set of measuring tools (dunno the name in english, but I use to measure automotive valve clearance and spark plug gap) and the real measures are:

High side (D string) 0.40mm
Low Side (B string) 0.25mm

but I am getting buzz in the mid-beginning of the neck in the B string... part from it being kind of floppy (34 scale bass and it was not designed for B strings - but let's no get into this subject...) and part from it being kinda low in the mid-neck area.
But if I set my B string to 0.3 or 0.35 I'd get about .5 in the D-string...

Cheers and thanks for the help!

First of all, the amount of difference in tension between the strings in negligible. Do not worry about it.

The tool sounds like a feeler gauge.

You're are over thinking all of this. There is only so much you can control on a wood neck. Unless the neck has two truss rods, take the relief measurement between the second and third strings, the center of the neck.

As far as the buzzing goes, it is impossible to tell without first knowing what the string heights are. By the way, "mid beginning" does not tell us where the problem is. Fret numbers do. Measure the string height from the top of the twelfth fret to the bottom of the string both bass and treble sides of the neck. Measurements at the last fret will also help. From there we can attempt to diagnose what is causing the problem.

Just for clarity's sake, does this guitar have a bolt-on neck?

[pin_head_47]

Another thing to consider is that the strings you're using are much heavier and therefore thicker, so they probably aren't fitting into the nuts slots as well as the smaller ones you normally use. This can create some setup related issues as well, especially if some strings are sitting lower/higher in their respective slots than the others.

[Bandeira]

202dy: yes it is a bolt-on neck...
just to confirm, you mean for me to measure string height - strings untouched, right?

pin_head: I double checked that... they are sitting deep in the nut slots indeed.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Bandeira

202dy: yes it is a bolt-on neck...
just to confirm, you mean for me to measure string height - strings untouched, right?

pin_head: I double checked that... they are sitting deep in the nut slots indeed.

Strings untouched for string heights.

Here's another wrinkle: All measurements should be taken in the playing position. Gravity has an effect on the neck.

[Bandeira]

will do...

I know... I've already did the stupidity in tuning the bass in the case prior to a small gig...

[Bandeira]

SO... back again... got some time to mess up with bass stuff as my *regular* work has been keeping me quite busy...

I started setting the bass up by the bridge saddles height so I would get some buzz on the 24th fret than back a little bit when the buzz is gone...

then, the truss rod...
I started setting from the 4th string (which at the time being is a .130 B string)
If I set it for me to have 0.3mm from string to 9th fret (capo@1st and 24th fret pressed as described above) I get some buzz at the 4th string on the 6th to 9th frets

Then I go for less truss rod tension, giving me about 0.35mm from string to 9th fret (capo@1st fret and 34th fret pressed) this gives me buzz-free 4th string....

THen I go to measure the 1st string distance to 9th fret (capo and 24th) and it is about .55mm which is a bit high...

is this OK? I mean, for playing purposes I can deal with that... but I mean, how about instrument durability and stuff?

202dy: what tool for string heights? Just a regular ruler or a kind of beefier feeler gauges?

Cheers!

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Bandeira

SO... back again... got some time to mess up with bass stuff as my *regular* work has been keeping me quite busy...

I started setting the bass up by the bridge saddles height so I would get some buzz on the 24th fret than back a little bit when the buzz is gone...

then, the truss rod...
I started setting from the 4th string (which at the time being is a .130 B string)
If I set it for me to have 0.3mm from string to 9th fret (capo@1st and 24th fret pressed as described above) I get some buzz at the 4th string on the 6th to 9th frets

Then I go for less truss rod tension, giving me about 0.35mm from string to 9th fret (capo@1st fret and 34th fret pressed) this gives me buzz-free 4th string....

THen I go to measure the 1st string distance to 9th fret (capo and 24th) and it is about .55mm which is a bit high...

is this OK? I mean, for playing purposes I can deal with that... but I mean, how about instrument durability and stuff?

202dy: what tool for string heights? Just a regular ruler or a kind of beefier feeler gauges?

Cheers!

Couple of things. If the bass has one truss rod, it lives in the center of the neck. A pro will employ a precision straight edge in the center of the fingerboard to read the relief. It is a good thing to check other locations on the fingerboard with the straight edge held in the lie of the strings. However, unless there is a compelling reason to adjust otherwise, it is the center measurement that is most important. On a five string (low B), it is the A string. On a four string, read the A and the D.

.3mm (~.012") to .4mm (~.016) give or take a tweak is a good amount of relief. The caveat is that any particular instrument my play like a dream with no relief. Another may require much more to be playable. That usually indicates something is amiss in the frets, the fingerboard, or both. But not always.

As far as relief, truss rod adjustments, and string tension having an adverse effect on the instrument, the answer is a resounding: No. The neck on a bass guitar is (usually) a big, honking piece of maple. Sometimes it's mahogany. Either way, the neck will withstand much more than the tension of the strings. If it's a laminate neck, it is usually stronger still. Oh, and one more thing. It is purely a myth that you can break a neck with the truss rod.

Measuring tool for string height: Pick up a hardware store metal ruler graduated in 32's and 64's for those of us in the USA, and in mm for the rest of the world. It's pretty much the standard tool. Feeler gauges move the strings around and are far too awkward to use for this measurement.

[darkstorm]

Look down the neck from the body end toward headstock. Look down both sides, the outside edge of fretboard. Does one side look like you have allmost backbow, while otherside looks like you have some upbow? If yes, you have a twisted neck.