buzzing only past 12 fret, and neck is properly aligned...

[JcHc]

Hey, I have a deluxe active jazz, and i just put a badass2 on there. For some reason this bridge has raised my action WAY too much, and even putting the saddles as low as they can go doesnt help. So, you guys on here told me to shim my neck..and i did, and it worked. And now I just set the action, and neck back to fenders standards, and there's so much buzzing past the 12th frett, that no note rings out. the other fretts buzz when played hard, but past the 12th is ridicuolus.

Also, the 7th frett on the A string rings out so much more, and louder(way to much mid range ithnk?) i actually avoid playing that note. i think my neck might be warped,it just does not look right. the G string is always way to high, and other thing i cant explain without you seeing my neck...

Any ideas what i should do please? i cant afford an other setup, and they never do what i want and dont take me seriously...thanks

[MuzikMan]

It sounds like you have more than one problem but I'll try to help with one of them. Dead notes past the 12th fret could be because of too much relief in the neck or uneven frets somewhere past the 12th. I would start by raising the action until it is playable past the 12th fret then loosen the strings and straighten the neck by tightening the truss rod. This is a trail and error type adjustment so take your time and be patient. You'll need to do it more than once to get it right. You may discover that you can remove the neck shim when you're done. You also need to make sure that the shim you are using is flat and wide enough so your neck doesn't twist in the pocket. That will screw things up.

[JcHc]

thanks!

[JcHc]

the e note on the a string has always rung out more, and has buzzed alot since i bought the bass several months ago...kinda the opposite of a dead spot.

i am thinking a the problem might have been the shim. i used business cards, and maybe i didnt aligne tehm
enough. I used about 4 cards i think, the only reason that much, was because for some reason the g string is always way to high, it is actually a little lower than the rest, just extremely hard to play

thanks

[Figjam]

Buzz 12+ usually means too much relief, tighten truss rod.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by JcHc

the e note on the a string has always rung out more, and has buzzed alot since i bought the bass several months ago...kinda the opposite of a dead spot.

i am thinking a the problem might have been the shim. i used business cards, and maybe i didnt aligne tehm
enough. I used about 4 cards i think, the only reason that much, was because for some reason the g string is always way to high, it is actually a little lower than the rest, just extremely hard to play

thanks

JcHc, You are using about 3'4" wide strips of business card rather than using the whole card, aren't you? You say that you are using about 4 cards and a bell kind of went off in my head.

If you are using the whole card, the neck angle wont really change as you add or remove the cards. The neck will just be raised or lowered but the actual neck angle wont change. Putting the strip(s) in across the pocket at the open end of the pocket will raise the headstock end of the neck in relation to the plane of the body. Across the blind end of the neck pocket will lower headstock end of the neck in relation to the plane of the body.

A VERY important caution is that you need to be sure the the strips of shim are at the very end of the pocket. If the strips slip and end up between the front and back neck screws, the neck angle may change enough to correct the neck angle, but it probably will cause a "ski jump". A slight upward hump right over the last 5 or 6 frets that may not show up for a long time.

I suggest that you adjust the relief for a straight neck and then use a straight edge, one end resting on the first fret and the other end resting on the bridge saddle. Lots faster than stringing and restringing to check your work after each adjustment.

Once the neck angle is corrected, restring it. now raise or lower the bridge saddles untill you just begin to get buzzing anywhere on the fingerboard. if the buzzing first becomes apparent on the headstock end, increase the relief. Buzz at the bridge end, raise the saddle. By shifting between the relief and saddle heigth adjustments, you should reach a point where the strings buzz over the whole fingerboard. At this point the relief is probably as good as it's going to get.

Now just raise the bridge saddles untill the buzz just clears up all over the fingerboard. The instrument is now adjusted as low as it can possibly go and all of your action (string heigth) adjustments can be made by using only the bridge saddles.

It's absolutely imperative that the nut heigth is correct BEFORE you start making any adjustments because if the slots are cut too high, it will keep the strings from buzzing on the first few frets on the open strings as you make the adjustments for buzzing over the whole neck.

If any of the adjustments are unattainable, there is a problem that needs to be corrected before going any further. The particular adjustment that doesn't respond properly will indicate the area of the problem.

The whole trick is to be systematic and to stop and correct any problem before going any further. Otherwise you will get into what I call the dog chasing its own tail.

Good luck and I hope this is of some help to you.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by Figjam

Buzz 12+ usually means too much relief, tighten truss rod.

Fig, I believe you made a typo. Didn't you mean: buzz 12+ means saddle too low?

Buzz at nut end frets means not enough relief (assuming that nut slots are cut properly IE not cut too low)?

[Luke73]

Originally Posted by pkr2

Fig, I believe you made a typo. Didn't you mean: buzz 12+ means saddle too low?

Buzz at nut end frets means not enough relief (assuming that nut slots are cut properly IE not cut too low)?

Buzz at 12+ frets = too much relief.

Buzz at frets 1-5 = not enough relief.

Buzz all the way up and down the neck = saddles too low.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by Luke73

Buzz at 12+ frets = too much relief.

Buzz at frets 1-5 = not enough relief.

Buzz all the way up and down the neck = saddles too low.

Relief should not be used to adjust buzz at the body end. Only the saddles, assuming that the neck angle is correct.

I agree with the 2nd two statements, though.

[Luke73]

Originally Posted by pkr2

Relief should not be used to adjust buzz at the body end. Only the saddles, assuming that the neck angle is correct.

I agree with the 2nd two statements, though.

OK, I'll quantify my statement.

Whilst buzzing above the 12th fret could be caused by things other than relief (fo example neck angle), if it is indeed caused by too much relief, then the most appropriate fix is to reduce relief.

If the problem were caused only by bridge saddles being too low, it's my opinion that buzzing would occur both above and below the 12th fret.



It certainly may be the case though that both a relief and saddle adustment may be neccessary. For example, one you have taken some of the relief out of the neck, you then might need to raise the saddles a little if the buzzing is all the way up and down the neck. Simply raising the saddles and not adjusting relief may alleviate the buzzing problem, but will still leave too much bow in the neck (a problem in itself).

IMHO, the most ideal situation is to have the relief set in such a way that the strings buzz all the way up and down the neck when the saddles are lowered, and then raise the saddles to a point at which fret buzz does not occur.

Everybody of course has their own preference...that's just the way I like it.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by Luke73

OK, I'll quantify my statement.

Whilst buzzing above the 12th fret could be caused by things other than relief (fo example neck angle), if it is indeed caused by too much relief, then the most appropriate fix is to reduce relief.

If the problem were caused only by bridge saddles being too low, it's my opinion that buzzing would occur both above and below the 12th fret.



It certainly may be the case though that both a relief and saddle adustment may be neccessary. For example, one you have taken some of the relief out of the neck, you then might need to raise the saddles a little if the buzzing is all the way up and down the neck. Simply raising the saddles and not adjusting relief may alleviate the buzzing problem, but will still leave too much bow in the neck (a problem in itself).

IMHO, the most ideal situation is to have the relief set in such a way that the strings buzz all the way up and down the neck when the saddles are lowered, and then raise the saddles to a point at which fret buzz does not occur.

Everybody of course has their own preference...that's just the way I like it.

If you start out by adjusting the truss rod AND the bridge saddles so every fret buzzes, the neck can't have too much bow or you couldn't make the frets buzz everwhere on the neck. If there was bow in the neck, the middle frets wouldn't buzz at all.

If the first adjustment that you make is to create a STRAIGHT neck, The straight neck become a reference point that you can adjust the bridge saddles from. After the bridge saddles are adjusted to slightly buzz at the bridge end, you will have some buzz at the nut end if the neck is straight and the nut is properly fitted. It's impossible for the frets to buzz at both ends but not in the middle if the string heigth is identical at all three points. Adjusting the relief for the bow that is needed to clear up the buzz at the nut end should be all that is needed to prepare fot the FINAL adjustment, the preferred action heigth via the saddles. Hence, the rule of thumb that the TR should NEVER be used as an action adjustment even though a grossly misadjusted TR can have an effect on the action.
(capitalization for emphasis. Not to be confused with shouting)

Picture, if you will, the shape or profile of the relief. The relief will create a very gradual bend that, because the neck is thicker at the bridge end, will be less pronounced at the bridge end. As the neck becomes thinner going toward the nut, the curve becomes more pronounced because, of course, a thin piece of wood bends more than a thicker piece.

The end result is a logrythmic curve. Not a symetric curve, so the Most bending occurs in the first few frets. Picture the letter "J" lying on its side. The long leg of the J is the neck from the bridge end to the area of the neck where the bending become more pronounced. That more pronounced curved area of the "J" anology is what you are affecting most with the relief adjustment. In other words the relief is making the curved part of the "J" shape either more pronounced or straighter. It's affecting the first few frets much more than the part part from around the 7th fret to the bridge end.

You've noticed, I'm sure that the truss rod is anchored at the very end of the neck on the nut end. It is anchored several inches from the bridge end in order to minimize the TRs effect on the portion of the neck that needs to be straighter. I'm speaking of a compression type TR.

Thanks for your input. I thouroghly enjoy a good discussion with someone who is as knowledgable as you obviously are.

Just because we don't agree on a few of the finer points certainly doesn't mean that I don't respect what you say. I do.

[Luke73]

Originally Posted by pkr2

If you start out by adjusting the truss rod AND the bridge saddles so every fret buzzes, the neck can't have too much bow or you couldn't make the frets buzz everwhere on the neck. If there was bow in the neck, the middle frets wouldn't buzz at all.

I wholeheartedly agree.

If the first adjustment that you make is to create a STRAIGHT neck, The straight neck become a reference point that you can adjust the bridge saddles from. After the bridge saddles are adjusted to slightly buzz at the bridge end, you will have some buzz at the nut end if the neck is straight and the nut is properly fitted. It's impossible for the frets to buzz at both ends but not in the middle if the string heigth is identical at all three points. Adjusting the relief for the bow that is needed to clear up the buzz at the nut end should be all that is needed to prepare fot the FINAL adjustment, the preferred action heigth via the saddles.

I mostly agree, except that my normal procedure (and I might add...I don't do this professionally - I'm only speaking from experience with my own basses) would be to take my bass, and measure the relief, and action. After doing that I would generally lower the action via the bridge saddles to create buzzing on the neck. Depending on where the buzzing occurs, I would dmake the approriate adjustments to the truss rod (if any are required). If the neck only buzzes at the nut end, I would add relief, if the neck buzzes only at the bridge I would determine the cause and f it was due to excessive relief I would remove some. If the neck buzzed all the way up and down te neck, it's likely that the truss rod is fine, and only an action adjustment via the saddles is necessary. I like your point about beginning with a straight neck as a reference for adjustments though - it's not something I've considered - but will certainly do so.

Hence, the rule of thumb that the TR should NEVER be used as an action adjustment even though a grossly misadjusted TR can have an effect on the action.
(capitalization for emphasis. Not to be confused with shouting)

I totally agree, and I think that this is a very important point. The role of the truss rod is simply to control the amount of relief in the neck. It is not to control the action of the neck. I would only ever make action adjustments via the bridge saddles.

Picture, if you will, the shape or profile of the relief. The relief will create a very gradual bend that, because the neck is thicker at the bridge end, will be less pronounced at the bridge end. As the neck becomes thinner going toward the nut, the curve becomes more pronounced because, of course, a thin piece of wood bends more than a thicker piece.

The end result is a logrythmic curve. Not a symetric curve, so the Most bending occurs in the first few frets. Picture the letter "J" lying on its side. The long leg of the J is the neck from the bridge end to the area of the neck where the bending become more pronounced. That more pronounced curved area of the "J" anology is what you are affecting most with the relief adjustment. In other words the relief is making the curved part of the "J" shape either more pronounced or straighter. It's affecting the first few frets much more than the part part from around the 7th fret to the bridge end.

You've noticed, I'm sure that the truss rod is anchored at the very end of the neck on the nut end. It is anchored several inches from the bridge end in order to minimize the TRs effect on the portion of the neck that needs to be straighter. I'm speaking of a compression type TR.

Indeed

Thanks for your input. I thouroghly enjoy a good discussion with someone who is as knowledgable as you obviously are.

Just because we don't agree on a few of the finer points certainly doesn't mean that I don't respect what you say. I do.

Many thanks

I think we agree on the fundamental principles involved.

Cheers for the informative posts.

[JcHc]

Originally Posted by pkr2

JcHc, You are using about 3'4" wide strips of business card rather than using the whole card, aren't you? You say that you are using about 4 cards and a bell kind of went off in my head.

If you are using the whole card, the neck angle wont really change as you add or remove the cards. The neck will just be raised or lowered but the actual neck angle wont change. Putting the strip(s) in across the pocket at the open end of the pocket will raise the headstock end of the neck in relation to the plane of the body. Across the blind end of the neck pocket will lower headstock end of the neck in relation to the plane of the body.

A VERY important caution is that you need to be sure the the strips of shim are at the very end of the pocket. If the strips slip and end up between the front and back neck screws, the neck angle may change enough to correct the neck angle, but it probably will cause a "ski jump". A slight upward hump right over the last 5 or 6 frets that may not show up for a long time.

I suggest that you adjust the relief for a straight neck and then use a straight edge, one end resting on the first fret and the other end resting on the bridge saddle. Lots faster than stringing and restringing to check your work after each adjustment.

Once the neck angle is corrected, restring it. now raise or lower the bridge saddles untill you just begin to get buzzing anywhere on the fingerboard. if the buzzing first becomes apparent on the headstock end, increase the relief. Buzz at the bridge end, raise the saddle. By shifting between the relief and saddle heigth adjustments, you should reach a point where the strings buzz over the whole fingerboard. At this point the relief is probably as good as it's going to get.

Now just raise the bridge saddles untill the buzz just clears up all over the fingerboard. The instrument is now adjusted as low as it can possibly go and all of your action (string heigth) adjustments can be made by using only the bridge saddles.

It's absolutely imperative that the nut heigth is correct BEFORE you start making any adjustments because if the slots are cut too high, it will keep the strings from buzzing on the first few frets on the open strings as you make the adjustments for buzzing over the whole neck.

If any of the adjustments are unattainable, there is a problem that needs to be corrected before going any further. The particular adjustment that doesn't respond properly will indicate the area of the problem.

The whole trick is to be systematic and to stop and correct any problem before going any further. Otherwise you will get into what I call the dog chasing its own tail.

Good luck and I hope this is of some help to you.

I thought the whole idea of a shim was to raise the neck off the body, resulting in a lower action(strings closer to neck)

But, what you are saying is that i want to angle the neck? How much card? towards the pickups, or away? do i cut thin strips?

[JcHc]

Hey, would it be more simple if I was to take it to a tech, and say "I want the action as low as possible, with the least amount of buzz, and remember I play with a pick fast..." Would he even shim the neck, because with out anything raising the neck, the action is extremely high, almost not playable. I just don't want to screw up my new 500 dollar bass, with you children arguing, I don't know what to believe....thank you all fo helping me though


My bass teacher said he would come to back me up if i go to a tech.

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by Joshua

I missed this at first. We've been nothing but helpful to you. Sometimes the internet doesn't communicate your true intent as well as the spoken medium. Please take that into consideration before hitting the Submit Reply button.

Please also reply to Rule #1 of the forum rules for any further clarification.

Plus one.

A quick check shows that most of us are probably well older than you. Or, in my case, I've been playing bass for 5 more years than you've been alive.

I have a feeling that most of the posters in the original thread who suggested shimming (the proper thing in this case) assumed that you'd be somewhat familiar with the concept of the shim, especially if you're doing your own bass-work.

The second problem, is that you're asking people to trouble-shoot an instrument without anyone having seen it. In such cases, we can tell you with our experience, what the symptom you list would suggest for a physical problem and a physical solution.

I've rarely heard of people using aftermarket BA bridges without shimming, and the BA people should include directions on proper setting up the bass once the bridge is in place.

Edited to add, that while your concern for you bass is cool. Shimming, removing shims, etc. are NOT invasive proceedures, and unless you do something WAY outside the normal proceedure, are all reversable and non-damaging.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by JcHc

Hey, would it be more simple if I was to take it to a tech, and say "I want the action as low as possible, with the least amount of buzz, and remember I play with a pick fast..." Would he even shim the neck, because with out anything raising the neck, the action is extremely high, almost not playable. I just don't want to screw up my new 500 dollar bass, with you children arguing, I don't know what to believe....thank you all fo helping me though


My bass teacher said he would come to back me up if i go to a tech.

Wow! I'm sort of sorry that you feel that you've been shortchanged. You know, we could have just told you to go to the stickies at the top of the forum. In less than 1 minute I found at least two websites that gave enough info that you should have been able to have a clear understanding of what the purpose of a shim is.

Please disregard any input that I've provided. I surely don't want to be responsible for you messing up your $500.00 bass
by doing a noninvasive, totally reversible procedure. Your lack of tact is unbelievable.

Yes, you should take your bass to a tech. The forum can only be useful to someone who is willing to do at least SOME homework on thier own.

By the way, this "child" was doing setups for at least 20 years before you were even born. We can lead you to the water but we can't teach you to swim via the internet.

Have a good day.

[JcHc]

hahahaha....