Can We Have An Honest Discussion About Bass Mods and Impact on Resale Value?

[gearhunter420]

Originally Posted by king_biscuit

That's going to decrease the value even if Ken himself did the work

I think the R&D departments' budgets of the major manufacturers are much greater than the budgets of people who mod their basses. And if the mod was that successful, why would the person be selling the bass? Just asking....

[lethargytartare]

Originally Posted by HalfOrLess

lethargytartare, I had forgotten about effects pedals. I've seen lots of websites that sell modded pedals, but I don't know how well they do, nor do I think I would be able to define economic/financial success. Do these kind of businesses have longevity?

It's not unlike the rest of this discussion -- the internet has enabled millions of hobbyists to build their own pedals using freely available plans...and they all think they're entitled to 150 bucks for a "boutique" pedal comprising $20 in parts and their amateur time. But Keeley and Analogman are recognized names, and well-established professional businesses, so they continue to thrive/survive. So Keeley can charge $210 bucks for a modded TS9 (tubescreamer). But when a random person takes a $40 TS9, mods it and asks me for $150 for it (reminding me that I'm saving $50 and getting just as good tone), I laugh heartily. That I can do those mods on my own isn't the whole point -- at the end of the day, unproven custom work is simply not a safe investment. I dealt one I modded (part of a larger trade), but the value I got for it was probably 50-60 bucks -- I had no luck trying to sell it (I think I was listing it for 75 bucks or something).

[ExaltBass]

I was just watching an episode of Chasing Classics on Velocity last night. It seems as though a well executed restoration (frame-off down to the bare metal and redo-to-everything) can increase the value of a car for sale... by a LOT. Some of the restorations are adding non-original, but period correct (NOS) components to the project. When will this attitude filter down to classic basses?

These vehicles are selling for half-a-million to multiple millions. When is the conversion of a classic junker to a classic beauty a negative? Granted we are not talking about the equivalent dollars, but still I hope my point is considered.

[the Arsonaut]

it won't.

Would you allow red lead, or bondo as a good substitute for "classic tone wood"?
it's why we're suspect of 'period correct' refinishing, unless it's done by a widely recognized shop, and even then, it's not as wide a trend as you'd be led to believe

I know we always look for a good metaphor for things...
but I could also direct you to classic car shows where stock original cars, or factory furbished packages run the highest prices around, hands down. Only 1 of 4 produced, with the papers to prove it.
Not to mention the pedigree that custom shops like Shelby (and his cobras) have built up over decades..on the wax and wane...

[lethargytartare]

Originally Posted by ExaltBass

I was just watching an episode of Chasing Classics on Velocity last night. It seems as though a well executed restoration (frame-off down to the bare metal and redo-to-everything) can increase the value of a car for sale... by a LOT. Some of the restorations are adding non-original, but period correct components to the project. When will this attitude filter down to classic basses?

These vehicles are selling for half-a-million to multiple millions. When is the conversion of a classic junker to a classic beauty a negative? Granted we are not talking about the equivalent dollars, but still I hope my point is considered.

And yet with furniture, stripping off old, gloppy finish and refinishing a piece to a beautiful, period-accurate color, can decimate the value.

Scarcity factors into this a lot, but remember, OP wasn't talking about restoring vintage instruments -- he was talking about modding as a way of increasing value of contemporary instruments. Apples and oranges. But to that point -- I GUARANTEE you that a 100% stock, original car is going to out-value a restored one with non-original period-accurate parts. But if the best driveable version of a classic car is one restored with period-accurate parts, and there are only a handful to be found, of course they'll be incredibly valuable. But to give this some relevance to the thread, if the restoration was done by ME (whose biggest projects include a swingset and a kitchen remodel), it's going to sell for less than if it was restored by Jesse James -- would you agree?

[franksgbass]

With vintage basses I could see it being a huge problem. But I just got a newer American Fender P that had just about everything modded. Here's the thing. I'm gonna play this bass. It's gonna come on tour with me and it's gonna record with me. When I buy a bass Im looking for a work horse to get the job done, feel comfortable and sound awesome. Never does the idea of "what could I get for this" come to mind. I guess we have some players on this sight and alot of collectors that like to look at basses hanging on the wall.
BtW, why was it OK for that ignorant bigot dude to type the word redneck a bunch of times at the start of this thread. Aren't there rules around these parts? Or is this turning into I love fuzz?
Answer: it was not Ok, bigot !!!!

[lethargytartare]

Originally Posted by franksgbass

...But I just got a newer American Fender P that had just about everything modded. Here's the thing. I'm gonna play this bass.

What did you pay for it? That's the point of the thread. A used MIA P is worth, what, 500-600? Did you pay $800 because it was modded?

And assuming you want a workhorse, do you really shell out for a workhorse when you can't verify the quality of the work done to it? For gigging, I look for dead-stock -- so I know what I'm getting, and have a sense of how reliable it will be.

I don't collect for show, and I don't pay a premium for amateur modding.

Originally Posted by franksgbass

BtW, why was it OK for that ignorant bigot dude to type the word redneck a bunch of times at the start of this thread. Aren't there rules around these parts? Or is this turning into I love fuzz?
Answer: it was not Ok, bigot !!!!

"love fuzz"?? Jeff Foxworthy got insanely rich off of "you may be a redneck" so I hardly think that qualifies as bigot-speak...but in particular contexts, it could be offensive...in this case, he also seemed to be insulting Japanese cars, which is kinda a redneck thing to do...so I'm not sure which way to take his comments...but I don't think it rose to the level of bigotry...

[the Arsonaut]

tut-tut...it's only the internet...

[Kevin aka Kebo]

Im in an interesting position as I sell 250-300 basses a year and have sold basses for 35 years. It doesnt matter if its a 5 dollar bass or a 50000.00 bass - you mod it, you cut the value AND you increased the length of time up for sale. Add a screw, change a foot print, any paint work or any routing - your taking a hit. Routing or refining is the worst deval. A swap that can go back to stock has no impact unless you could see it or its a vinatge instrument in some cases. If Im not mistaken I wrote a piece on this while I was at Premier Guitar.

[franksgbass]

Originally Posted by lethargytartare

What did you pay for it? That's the point of the thread. A used MIA P is worth, what, 500-600? Did you pay $800 because it was modded?

And assuming you want a workhorse, do you really shell out for a workhorse when you can't verify the quality of the work done to it? For gigging, I look for dead-stock -- so I know what I'm getting, and have a sense of how reliable it will be.

I don't collect for show, and I don't pay a premium for amateur modding.




"love fuzz"?? Jeff Foxworthy got insanely rich off of "you may be a redneck" so I hardly think that qualifies as bigot-speak...but in particular contexts, it could be offensive...in this case, he also seemed to be insulting Japanese cars, which is kinda a redneck thing to do...so I'm not sure which way to take his comments...but I don't think it rose to the level of bigotry...

I see MIA P basses sell all the time for $500, right? Come on dude. That's just not accurate. Maybe $650-$700.

And Jeff Foxworthy, are you kidding me? We are clearly different on all levels.

BTW, I like every mod the bass had. My point was not everyone would lowball a modded bass.
To each his own.

[ExaltBass]

I guess I'm off the mark... I think of a mod as any change. If someone were to change the pickguard on their bass from black to tort... does that devalue the bass? Many of us change knobs, pickguards, paint color. pickups to our taste... I prefer Sadowsky, Fralin and Lollar pickups - all $ignificant upgrades, not to mention adding active preamps (Sadowsky on most of my basses, and Bart NTMB on my Warrior). I think of these things as improvements... hot-rodding... and worth paying for when I shop for a bass - not as a freebie to the next owner.

Yes, some of the stuff we do is for us. And not everyone's taste is the same. But a really well-made mod is a thing of beauty.



Chevy Bass: BEAD Multiple body modifications, Sherwood Green Metallic paint, 'J' pup and side jack routs by Ben Lindsey. Pups custom wound by Lollar, Babicsz Bridge, Antique Pearloid Pickguard by Joiner, Sadowsky knobs, Fender ASP Factory prototype neck - nut modded for BEAD. I have well over $1,000 into it, and its been darn well worth it. If you would have seen it as it was when we started! It's unique, and I'll never sell it while I'm still rockin'

I have others...

[buzzammo]

I love to mod instruments, when said mods are upgrades in terms of quality. Buying cheap basses and giving them a facelift is tons of fun and you end up with really unique gear. Then again, I'm someone who mods for my own interest, unconcerned with selling. I can't imagine owning something always concerned about what the resale value would be if I did X or Y to it...jeez, who needs that hassle in life? Especially as a musician, regarding "your" instrument?! I'm always on the lookout for modded gear too and I love seeing what other musicians come up with. I would actually prefer buying a nicely modded instrument vs. its stock cousin (all things being equal). Want to collect something? Try baseball cards or postage stamps, lol. Instruments should be played and used, not thought of as cold, sterile, financial investments.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by Modulus1906

Don't sites like Talkbass increase the odds of finding someone who will appreciate the mods? By the way, I've modded a Modulus Quantum 6 and a Pedulla Thunderbass ET5 and the concensus is that the basses sound better even from some who "hate mods". I don't believe a bass sounds better just because it's factory, even with high-end builders. I know "better" is a relative term. I no longer fear modding because I kinda know what to expect now.

This is a completely different issue.

The sound of an instrument doesn't determine its street value. Even if you got 10 pro musicians to all agree that bass A sounds better than bass B, that won't change the sale price of bass A.

Things like the cost of materials, labor, research and development, the prices of competing products, and the demand for that particular product are all far more important when it comes to determining price than how "good" an instrument sounds.

Besides, as you yourself said, "better" is relative.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't pay more than $100 for a Musicman Sterling. Why? Because I don't personally like the sound. I think it's a very well made bass that is very easy to play and has a great neck. The bass has a good reputation and the brand has 1000s of loyal customers. But I'd take almost any Fender bass over a Sterling.

Another guy might love the sound of a Musicman Sterling and dislike Fenders. So he's more than willing to pay for one, or at least a used one.

So it doesn't matter if you mod a bass and a bunch of people think it sounds better. It only matters if the person you're selling the bass to thinks it sounds better.

[PJRL]

I tend to not do mods / changes that can not be undone. Having said that, These days the pickup manufacturers and and aftermarket parts makers have designed a LOT of ways to to make major sound & playability mods that will fit right into the original routing and screw holes. If you do mods like that I say mod away no harm done to the value of your instrument.

[lethargytartare]

Originally Posted by franksgbass

I see MIA P basses sell all the time for $500, right? Come on dude. That's just not accurate. Maybe $650-$700.

Sigh...way to zero in on the critical point...in any event, I said 500-600, and just found a couple of recent sales in that range -- more above it which proves I haven't shopped for a P bass in a while...ALL of which is very VERY relevant to this discussion...

Originally Posted by franksgbass

And Jeff Foxworthy, are you kidding me? We are clearly different on all levels.

Your point? You were calling someone a bigot for referencing "rednecks," I point out a comedian whose ENTIRE CAREER is based on laughing about being proud to be a redneck, and you're baffled? If you were reading more carefully, you'd see I was both giving you some support and suggesting it wasn't so bad...but hey, read it how you want...

Originally Posted by franksgbass

BTW, I like every mod the bass had. My point was not everyone would lowball a modded bass.
To each his own.

You still haven't answered the question, and addressed the topic of this thread. So I'll adjust my comment: A used MIA P is worth, what, 600-700? Did you pay 900 for yours because of the mods? OP was asking if mods should reduce resale value. You LOVE the mods you got, so answer his poll: did you lowball the seller despite drooling over the mods? did you pay a premium? Did you consider it more or less equal with other available, unmodded, basses?

And I still want to know what "love fuzz" meant

[the Arsonaut]

I was just in brooklyn, so I think I've got the lingo down...

Love Fuzz: a stringy, wet behind the ears youngin's awe/respect for a man with a beard...

[Billy K]

I modded a Squier P with Hipshot tuner,Babicz bridge,pickguard,and Nordstrand pickups and just traded it straight across for a Lakland 55-01 with Nordy pickup mod

[Pilgrim]

It's simple - if the bass has been modified in any way, unless I happen to be in the market for that mod, it's worth less TO ME. On further reflection, even if I like the mod, the bass is still worth less because I may have to re-sell it and I may be the only one who wants that mod.

Why?

- I may be inheriting your bad installation
- I may be inheriting bad parts
- I may be inheriting a butchered bass
- I may have to go through the bass and re-wire it back to stock

I can go on, but basically any one person can screw up a bass in ways that aren't visible in photos. If it's stock, I know what to expect; if not, I'm taking a chance.

MAYBE I know who you are and MAYBE I trust your workmanship enough to consider a specific mod to be a plus. There are people I trust in that regard, but not many.

[Billy K]

I should add to my above post that I need to thank Chunger for his picture essay on modding a bass and showing me the love in doing it. I was inspired to try on my Squier.The payoff was when my teacher tried the bass and fell in love with it and asked if I would sell it.I said I would and he took his Lakland down and asked if I would trade. well I was ready to step up to 5 string and I was looking at Lakland yesterday in fact so I thought "a sign"..

[charliebrown]

Originally Posted by king_biscuit

You are never going to convince me that I want a bass that you modded as much as if you didn't mod it. I don't care what it sounds like.

I've modded my Jazz Bass and many guitars...I NEVER do it with the thought that it'll increase the resale value...I do it so it sounds and plays like I want it to. I finally stopped swapping out instruments...I buy them and keep them, or I don't buy them, period...I have had "sellers remorse" too many times...it's painful lol