Cannot set intonation on one string

kbc0124 · #1 01-20-2012, 05:17 AM

Hi,

Total newbie here. Have learned a lot from reading this forum, and attempted my first setup today. Decided to put some flatwounds on my new bass (Godin Shifter 4-string).

Following some of the guides and advice that I have read on the forum, I set the neck relief, adjusted the saddle height for the right action and then set out to set the intonation.

Started with the G, then D, then A - all went fine. As expected, the saddles so far are following the expected pattern, with the G string saddle closest to the pickups, then D, then A.

When I got to the E string, things got more difficult. The fretted note on the twelfth showed flat, so I adjusted the bridge saddle to be closer to the pickup. Then I would check the tuning of the open E, then the harmonic on the 12th and try again with the fretted note. Still flat. After several attempts at this, the E string saddle is now the closest to the pickups, I cannot adjust it to be any closer (the screw going into the saddle is actually countersunk a bit now - if I adjust it any more the saddle will no longer be attached to the screw). And the fretted note on the 12th is still flat.

I should mention a couple of particularities about this string. First, it is difficult to tune (I am using a cheap Yamaha tuner but am not having issues on any of the other strings). When I say "difficult", I mean that there is a really fine hairline between flat and sharp. It is difficult to get the open note tuned properly. Once I do, I notice that the harmonic on the 12th is sometimes flat (or to be more accurate, it "flickers" between tuned and flat). Eventually I can get the sting tuned and the harmonic apparently matching, but then the fretted note at the 12th is always flat.

Am I doing something wrong? Do I need to bring the saddle way back (closest to the bridge)
and then start over with this string?

Any help would be appreciated. I'm surprised that all else went well only to have a problem with intonation on the last string! If I can fix this, then I only need to adjust pickup height and I have completed my first setup!

Thanks...

ColinB · #2 01-20-2012, 05:38 AM

If a string is impossible to intonate then there's usually a fault in the string. I've never had the problem in setting up a bass - but it's happened a few times with guitars. Sight down the string at a shallow angle from the headstock to the bridge, you might well see a kink in it. You're almost certainly going to have to replace the offending string.

Hope this helps.

Bassics101 · #3 01-20-2012, 05:46 AM

I've no experience with that tuner, but I have noticed that less expensive tuners can have trouble homing in on the E. I've one that works great for guitar and the A, D, G of bass but not so for the E. If you know someone with a better tuner, give that a try. Also, are you muting the other strings when you check the E? That might help.

psyoptica · #4 01-20-2012, 05:53 AM

Try using a heavier string, between a .110 and .120 gauge. Most low Es are too light for my liking. They flop around and that can cause intonation issues, as well as issues with tuners.

lowfreq33 · #5 01-20-2012, 06:12 AM

Could also be an issue with the tuning machine on that string. I've run across a few that had a big jump in certain spots. Every once in awhile parts don't come out right, and tuners need to be machined pretty precisely.

Skitch it! · #6 01-20-2012, 06:14 AM

Did you set the 'witness point/string break angle' on the new set of strings at the bridge? I've never come across that particular prob before, I usually have to take the E string saddle back more, not forward. What is the gauge difference between the last set?

kbc0124 · #7 01-20-2012, 07:19 AM

Thanks everybody for their suggestions.

Here is a quick rundown:

- I have looked at the string, and there are no kinks
- I don't have a better tuner to try, but I finally got the open E string pretty stable (meaning it consistently is reading in tune - not jumping around)
- I can't go for a heavier string without filing the nut at the E string (which I really don't want to attempt). The new set of strings that I've put on is the same gauge as the old set - .045,.065,.080,.100 (only difference is the old set was roundwound, these are flatwound)
- I just read about setting the "witness point". Not sure if I did it right - I just pressed down over the angle at the bridge where each string passes over the saddle. So if that's right then yes, I have now done that (didn't change the results).

I wonder what else this could be? It's a shame if it's the string as it was a miracle that I found these in town and they were quite expensive - wouldn't want to buy another set just for this.

What are your thoughts on just living with it? It bugs me of course, but I guess the only real consequence is that my notes on the E string won't be accurate at the upper end of the fretboard - is that right?

For a noob like me, only trying to learn to play this thing, I guess that's liveable if that's the only consequence.

I'm guessing that when I change strings again someday maybe the problem will go away?

Any other thoughts are still welcome, and thanks for the suggestions so far. Already learned a few more things...

kbc0124 · #8 01-20-2012, 07:30 AM

Oh - and here's another thought. I think I may need to shim my neck. The saddles are as low as they can go for the G and E strings, and the E is still a bit high (this is after I have set the proepr relief in the neck, which I am pretty sure I have done correctly as I have measured closely).

Do you think this would have an effect on my intonation issue?

Skitch it! · #9 01-20-2012, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbc0124

I just read about setting the "witness point". Not sure if I did it right - I just pressed down over the angle at the bridge where each string passes over the saddle. So if that's right then yes, I have now done that (didn't change the results).

Press each string down with your thumb a couple of times around an inch in front of the saddle, not on the saddle point, that won't do it.

I don't know, tbh I think it may be something to do with the string itself. Give it a day or 2 and see if it settles in more, other than that, I can't work out whats wrong there.

Skitch it! · #10 01-20-2012, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbc0124

Oh - and here's another thought. I think I may need to shim my neck. The saddles are as low as they can go for the G and E strings, and the E is still a bit high (this is after I have set the proepr relief in the neck, which I am pretty sure I have done correctly as I have measured closely).

Do you think this would have an effect on my intonation issue?

Yep, take it to a tech, there is something up there. You shouldn't run out of adjustment, especially using .45 set. How long have you had the bass?

kbc0124 · #11 01-20-2012, 08:24 AM

Thanks Skitch it - the bass is brand new. Just trying to get it set up better, since it came with a really high action and way too much neck relief. I've talked myself into making an attempt at shimming the neck, since that seems pretty easy to try. I live in place without any easy access to a good guitar tech, so I think I'll give the neck shim a try to see if that helps with the action. Maybe I'll get lucky and it'll have an effect on the intonation of the E string too.

Febs · #12 01-20-2012, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbc0124

Oh - and here's another thought. I think I may need to shim my neck. The saddles are as low as they can go for the G and E strings, and the E is still a bit high (this is after I have set the proepr relief in the neck, which I am pretty sure I have done correctly as I have measured closely).

Do you think this would have an effect on my intonation issue?

Yes, it could have an effect, but if your action is too high, that would make the fretted note sharp, rather than flat.

Before you try anything more drastic, try another string. It's very possible that the string itself is to blame.

FunkMetalBass · #13 01-20-2012, 08:37 AM

Loosen the string, move the saddle to the point where you think it should be placed (there's probably an obvious pattern on the other three strings that you can follow). Tune it up to pitch, press down firmly about an inch past the saddle, and try it all again. The witness point seems like the only possible reason that you could move the saddle a half inch forward with no results.

JLS · #14 01-20-2012, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbc0124

Oh - and here's another thought. I think I may need to shim my neck. The saddles are as low as they can go for the G and E strings, and the E is still a bit high (this is after I have set the proepr relief in the neck, which I am pretty sure I have done correctly as I have measured closely).

Do you think this would have an effect on my intonation issue?

No.

Steve · #15 01-20-2012, 09:58 AM

IMHO there are very few absolutes in what we do. One of the is:

You can't properly intonate ANYTHING with a POS tuner.

If you do, you got lucky.

spz8 · #16 01-20-2012, 10:27 AM

It's likely there's an inherent problem with that particular string. In learning the ins and outs of bass setup on my 6er, I once had issues with the high C string on a new set of DR hi-beams. It just would just not intonate properly. Getting it as close as possible, the saddle pattern was totally out of whack, and high chords still sounded out of tune. I replaced the string, and it intonated fine with the saddle closer to its proper position. Sometimes there's just a manufacturing defect. If you can, try to return/exchange the string.

kbc0124 · #17 01-20-2012, 10:49 AM

Thanks everybody - I'm going to try what FunkMetalBass suggests below with the witness point, and if that doesn't work I'll try to return the string.

And I think I'll get myself a better tuner while I'm at it. I appreciate all the help. This is truly a great forum...

Warfender · #18 01-20-2012, 01:05 PM

I had this happen one with an E string and it was a bad string. Put your old one back on and it is fine then it is the string. Call the manuf and they will send you a new string or new set free usually. Mine did.

SteveC · #19 01-20-2012, 01:09 PM

bad string. I had this happen with BOTH my D and G in a DR set one time. I was really surprised. New strings, no issues.

Masashi is God · #20 01-20-2012, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spz8

It's likely there's an inherent problem with that particular string. In learning the ins and outs of bass setup on my 6er, I once had issues with the high C string on a new set of DR hi-beams. It just would just not intonate properly. Getting it as close as possible, the saddle pattern was totally out of whack, and high chords still sounded out of tune. I replaced the string, and it intonated fine with the saddle closer to its proper position. Sometimes there's just a manufacturing defect. If you can, try to return/exchange the string.

+1 on the dodgy string, I have three basses with thomastik flats on, but it seems like setting the basses up for flats was a mare each time. Almost like the strings, particularly the low e, just did't like being tightened and loosened lots of times from new and sounded crap.

After putting on a new set having done the setup already they were great.