Crazy intonation - Page 2

**john turner** · #21 05-01-2003, 10:31 AM

actually, the more i think about it, the better it is to use the harmonic in situations like this, even with a tuner. the harmonic is going to be a monochromatic tone, that a tuner (especially a cheaper one) will lock onto quicker and drift from less. this is going to help the whole process.

**john turner** · #22 05-01-2003, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Josh Walsh

This is what I was taught as well...

The sheer mechanics of the harmonic make it (somewhat) less reliable than the open string.

my experience is the opposite. if anything, the reliability of the open string is going to be less - the relatively high presence of the 5th in the mix is going to make a less-than-ideal tuner fluctuate more than the relatively purer sine wave of a harmonic. as far as tuners go, a harmonic is always going to register faster.

whatever. you guys intonate how you like. i've gotten compliments on the intonation of my basses, from other bassists (like jon packard, for instance - ask him) as well as neil kernon, who made a point of mentioning it to me. i must be doing something right, although in large part it is due to the instrument's quality.

**john turner** · #23 05-01-2003, 11:39 AM

another thing to consider - using the open string with cheap tuners and lower than e string equipped instruments is going to _fail_ to give you an accurate reading. many tuners don't do the low b very well, even expensive ones, and getting the intonation correct with something that drifts wildly is not a good idea. shoot, i've seen even relatively expensive tuners drift a bit on the open e string.

i'm really curious as to what the potential difficulties or limitations of using the harmonic is.

Chasarms · #24 05-01-2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by john turner
i'm really curious as to what the potential difficulties or limitations of using the harmonic is.

I have never had problems with my tuners getting the open string to properly register.

However, being that in theory, if the open string is tuned to correct pitch, then the harmonic is as well and visey versy (as my grandmother would say) Then I say take whatever path you choose.

Either will get you where you need to go.

Chas

**john turner** · #25 05-01-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Josh Walsh

AFAIK, it is the mechanics of creating it that is the hazardous area. Assuming you pluck it correctly, what Chas said. Using the open string just eliminates the margin for error.

a harmonic will only sound if it's plucked correctly, is that what you mean? it's not like you can pluck it flat or sharp.

pkr2 · #26 05-01-2003, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by john turner

i don't see the confusion aspect. since the note at the 12th fret and the harmonic are supposed to be the same note, using the two of them together as opposed to the open string and the 12th fret seems to help me that much more - a good ear is going to be able to distinguish more even than a bad tuner. there's an element of ear to everything we do - having the same notes side-by-side is going to give a much more accurate by-ear comparison than having the notes an octave apart.

still, though, it's splitting a pretty fine hair, either will suffice.

JT, I'm not at all saying that the method that you use is wrong. I'm not saying that my way is the only way.

To rough in the intonation I would imagine that most of us would use the harmonic to get as close and as quickly to the finish adjustment. However, and like most people, I always finish the routine with a tuner. The tuner nearly always indicates that my ear isn't precise enough for intonation.

I understand what you are saying, but , no, the mechanics of string vibration between a harmonic and a fretted note are not two easy notes to compare, pitch wise.

The note played at a harmonic octave will be very affected by the doubling of the working length of the string. Not to mention the effects of standing waves on timbre differences between the note.

The only thing that I can say about the accuracy of a cheap tuner compared to the accuracy of my ear is that the tuner is more accurate. YMMV

By all means,I recommend that everyone try both methods and use the one that work best. Everyone is going to end up with the same result. It ain't how you drive, it's how you arrive that counts.

So far as the confusion factor; go to the top and read all of the posts. You fail to see confusion?

Pkr2

**john turner** · #27 05-01-2003, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pkr2

JT, I'm not at all saying that the method that you use is wrong. I'm not saying that my way is the only way.

To rough in the intonation I would imagine that most of us would use the harmonic to get as close and as quickly to the finish adjustment. However, and like most people, I always finish the routine with a tuner. The tuner nearly always indicates that my ear isn't precise enough for intonation.

I understand what you are saying, but , no, the mechanics of string vibration between a harmonic and a fretted note are not two easy notes to compare, pitch wise.

The note played at a harmonic octave will be very affected by the doubling of the working length of the string. Not to mention the effects of standing waves on timbre differences between the note.

The only thing that I can say about the accuracy of a cheap tuner compared to the accuracy of my ear is that the tuner is more accurate. YMMV

By all means,I recommend that everyone try both methods and use the one that work best. Everyone is going to end up with the same result. It ain't how you drive, it's how you arrive that counts.

So far as the confusion factor; go to the top and read all of the posts. You fail to see confusion?

Pkr2

you're still not getting what i'm saying.

my point is : tuner + harmonic = best way. i never mentioned doing this by ear alone - that was chasarms. i would _never_ intonate an instrument by ear alone. that's like trying to draw a straight line without a ruler.

Chasarms · #28 05-01-2003, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by john turner

you're still not getting what i'm saying.

my point is : tuner + harmonic = best way. i never mentioned doing this by ear alone - that was chasarms. i would _never_ intonate an instrument by ear alone. that's like trying to draw a straight line without a ruler.

FWIW, I wouldn't either, but I have seen it attempted more than once. Mostly before the days that functional tuner could be had cheap.

chas