Defretted Fix: Frets de-epoxied and refilled [Many Photos]

[marcss]

A bit of background:
I purchased this defretted Cort P bass with epoxy in the frets:


It sounded pretty good, but I wanted to improve the sound and clean up the chipping a bit. More importantly, I needed a project for my new project bass! With that said, I read through the many pages of the Defretting sticky twice and began my journey.

So, I decided to remove the epoxy using a razer blade.


Which was a bit tedious and prone to error, but it got the epoxy out of the fret slots with minimal injury to the fretboard and my person:


I freehand sanded the fretboard to even out some of the bumps created by the defretting:


This produced some nice wood dust which I mixed with wood glue and stuffed into the chips using some cardboard to prevent it from filling the frets:


After the glue had started to maintain its shape, but well before it hardened, I removed the cardboard strips:


After the glue hardened completely (I left it for 24 hours based on the product's instructions), I had a close-enough color match, but I definitely used a bit too much:


Not a big deal, but this lead to more sanding than I would have liked. After sanding down with 120 grit paper, I was left with acceptable (not perfect) results:


I couldn't find any wood veneer at my local The Home Depot, Lowes, or Michael's, so I gave in and used some walnut-colored wood filler I had laying around. I squeezed the filler out of the tube and into the slots as best I could, but in all cases it came down to me pushing the filler in with my fingers. A bit messy, but it worked:


I ended up doing a second round of wood filler. Here's a terrible photo of the whole neck with the frets filled:


I couldn't wipe off the excess without also removing some from the fret slots as well, so I just left it to sand later. Which looked like this:


It's hard to tell, but it turned out to be pretty well smooth. Definitely much smoother than when I started this project:


My next step is to put some sort of protective coating on the next. I want something I won't have to re-apply often, so as permanent as possible. I'm not looking for a glass finish really, just something smooth. Something that will fill in the remaining imperfections would be nice. That said, I'm leaning toward epoxy (funny, considering that my main goal of this project was to remove the epoxy), or super glue.

Thanks for reading. I'd love to hear your comments and suggestions.

[vejesse]

so... How do you think the soft wood filler will resist the compressive force as the fret slots open and close slightly when the neck flexes? I predict some forward bow.

[marcss]

Originally Posted by vejesse

so... How do you think the soft wood filler will resist the compressive force as the fret slots open and close slightly when the neck flexes? I predict some forward bow.

I don't know much about wood filler, as illustrated by the fact that I originally purchased non-hardening wood putty. But here's why I felt comfortable with this approach:

1. The wood filler seems pretty strong to me. I squeezed some out and let it dry for a couple days and it's hard.
2. The package suggests it won't shrink.
3. I've read lots of other people here on TB who use wood filler to fill frets and it holds up, even after 20+ years.
4. I hope finishing with either super glue or epoxy will add some strength.

Perhaps it will result in some additional forward bowing, but there should have enough life in the truss rod to compensate.

[Pilgrim]

Seriously - start over, remove all the wood filler, insert polystyrene strips from a craft shop (about .020 thick) or find something else that actually will be as solid as the wood. Putty does not cut it. You need really solid material in there. The truss rod often cannot compensate for a series of slots cut across the neck and filled with putty - which is about as stable as cold chewing gum.

And - after all the sanding you've done, you need to buy a sanding block from Stew-Mac with the correct curvature for your neck and completely re-do the sanding.

DO NOT touch it with super glue or epoxy. You're a long way from done. Not being mean here, being honest.

When you're completely done and the neck has been re-radiused with the correct sanding block, consider a couple of coats of tung oil - that's ll you need.

[marcss]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Seriously - start over, remove all the wood filler, insert polystyrene strips from a craft shop (about .020 thick) or find something else that actually will be as solid as the wood. Putty does not cut it. You need really solid material in there. The truss rod often cannot compensate for a series of slots cut across the neck and filled with putty - which is about as stable as cold chewing gum.

And - after all the sanding you've done, you need to buy a sanding block from Stew-Mac with the correct curvature for your neck and completely re-do the sanding.

DO NOT touch it with super glue or epoxy. You're a long way from done. Not being mean here, being honest.

When you're completely done and the neck has been re-radiused with the correct sanding block, consider a couple of coats of tung oil - that's ll you need.

Thanks for the advice.

Sorry if I wasn't clear--I used hardening wood filler, not soft wood putty. I purchased putty accidentally, but it wasn't used. The wood filler gets quite hard. If I stumble upon wood veneer I might be inspired to start over, but short of that...

Once I get to play it and hear the differences in the sound of the bass compared to before this work, I may decide to go back and apply a proper radius to the neck. I'm confident that I didn't muck things up too badly. But only playing the bass will tell. This is one that is best learned through experience, I think. Also, I'm trying to keep a budget. I think I'm close to spending more on refinishing materials than I spent on the bass itself.

I did consider tung oil instead of superglue and epoxy, but for some reason I got the impression that tung oil is something that would need to be reapplied after a while, which is definitely not something I want to do. I completely admit that I could be confusing it with some of the other oil suggestions heard on TB--lemon, olive, fried chicken grease, etc. I haven't come across any example results of what using tung oil, but there were plenty of superglue and epoxy examples. Any links illustrating how a tung oil-treated neck looks and plays?

I'm happy with the results so far. The sound is much smoother than it was with the epoxy-filled frets. While this is a project bass, I'm getting a bit anxious to actually reach a milestone where I can string it up for a few months and play it.

[202dy]

The fingerboard is an important part of neck stiffness.

In woodworking parlance, fret slots are called kerfs. Typically, kerfs are cut into boards to make it easy to bend them to what ever shape is desired. Curves, esses, even circles can be made from kerfed boards. A good example is the kerfed lining inside an acoustic guitar used to add gluing surface and support the top and back. Obviously, a kerfed board is not stiff.

When frets are installed in a fingerboard, the board is no longer compromised because the fret material is harder than the wood. When the frets are removed, the fingerboard is again a kerfed board that detracts from the overall stiffness of the neck. The only way to reestablish that stiffness is to fill the kerfs with a material that is at least as hard as the fingerboard species.

"Hardening" wood filler is soft. It will compress under the tension of the strings. A good, functional truss rod can correct the problem most of the time. However, neck stiffness is still compromised. The best solution is to use a harder material.

Binding material is sometimes used when a lined fret board is desired. As Pilgrim pointed out, polystyrene strips could also be a better choice.

The deluxe material is wood veneer. Using the same species as the fingerboards can leave an almost invisible line. If a lined board is desired, a species in a contrasting color can be used. A luthier might choose rosewood or walnut veneer in a maple fingerboard, or maple in a rosewood or ebony fingerboard.

[marcss]

Tough crowd. I'm a bit confused that these objections and feedback never came up in the defretting sticky. Hm.

Originally Posted by shockley

shame all this work for nothin

If by "nothin" you mean "significantly improving the quality of the sound" then yes, it's a shame I did that.

[Pilgrim]

I don't know what wood veneer costs - I couldn't find any cut to strict tolerance and I wanted lines for visual reference anyway. that's why I used a craft saw to clean out the fret lines on mine, and white styrene (non-compressible) to fill the slots. And plastic is cheap. In my personal opinion, wood fillers and putty aren't acceptable. Too much potential for compression over time.

Tung oil might be re-applied every few years, but I haven't done so in the four years since I did this bass....and that's what's on the fretboard. I doubt you're unwilling to put a coat of oil on a fretboard once every 5 years or so.

I don't have any close-ups of the fretboard, but that's because it just looks like a fretboard. but when I run a fingertip down the neck, I can't even feel the fret lines.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by marcss

Tough crowd. I'm a bit confused that these objections and feedback never came up in the defretting sticky. Hm.

Anyone can post anything on the internet. It is up to you to decide between fact and fiction. Wood filler is easy to use. That's why so many people post that method. That doesn't make it good.

Converting a fingerboard from fretted to fretless is actually a relatively advanced repair technique. The methods are easy. However, doing it right is not. Material choices are key to creating a finished product that is on par with a solid fingerboard.

If you are going to continue to attempt advanced work, purchasing a book is a good idea. The Guitar Player Guide to Repair by Dan Erlewine is a good place to start. It is an easy read and won't break the bank.

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

I don't know what wood veneer costs - I couldn't find any cut to strict tolerance and I wanted lines for visual reference anyway. that's why I used a craft saw to clean out the fret lines on mine, and white styrene (non-compressible) to fill the slots. And plastic is cheap. In my personal opinion, wood fillers and putty aren't acceptable. Too much potential for compression over time.

Certainly a good method.

Wood veneer is available from many sources on line. It is not very expensive. Some of the larger lumber houses (Not the Large Home Center On the Four Lane) carry veneers. It comes in 1/28" (.036") and 1/40" (.025") thicknesses. The thinner product is scraped or sanded down to the desired dimension. The thicker product, or sometimes the thinner one, can be used to correct an ess curve or excessive back bow the same way thicker fret tangs are used in compression fretting. Once the veneer is in place and the glue cures it is trimmed with a knife, block, or finger planes. The rest of the job is like using any other material.

[marcss]

Thanks guys. Glad to have your experience and knowledge. It would be a great addition to the defretting sticky, which I assumed was the most complete and up-to-date resource of its kind on TB. Obviously there's always more information waiting to be uncovered. This project is very much about learning, gaining experience, and bonding with an instrument. So, I'm expecting, willing, and happy to make mistakes because experiencing the results of the mistakes offers a way to compare it to the results of the more successful ventures.

So far, I've learned quite a bit. I had a defretted bass which had some pretty awful buzz all over the neck and I managed to fix that using the technique documented here. Maybe it's not the ideal method, but it was effective. I truly wanted to use wood veneer, but couldn't find them anywhere, and I wasn't happy to wait a week for them to be shipped. One day I'll bite that bullet and I'll be glad to have this less-than-ideal experience to compare it to.

So, a few questions:

1. Doesn't the strength of a guitar neck come from the neck and truss rod rather than the fretboard?

2. Are there any known instances of neck problems caused by weak fretboards with soft fillers replacing the frets? I've actually seen a lot of people ask if they can leave the kerfs empty--which immediately seemed like a terrible idea. (Thanks for that word, I hated calling them fret slots or, even more inaccurately frets.) I can't seem to find it now, but I read here on TB someone mention that their bass was defretted and the kerfs were filled with wood filler and even after 20 years there was no problem.

3. Does using plastic in place of frets have an effect on the tone of the bass? For whatever reason using wood or wood-like products seemed far more appealing to me. But that may just be an unfair bias on my part.

Thanks again!

[202dy]

Originally Posted by marcss

Thanks guys. Glad to have your experience and knowledge. It would be a great addition to the defretting sticky, which I assumed was the most complete and up-to-date resource of its kind on TB. Obviously there's always more information waiting to be uncovered. This project is very much about learning, gaining experience, and bonding with an instrument. So, I'm expecting, willing, and happy to make mistakes because experiencing the results of the mistakes offers a way to compare it to the results of the more successful ventures.

The stickies on TB are generally pretty good. In this case, the absence of contradictory material is directly related to the more experienced members lack of interest in the subject. Luthiers and repairmen get this request infrequently. When they quote the work, most people run screaming bloody murder as they leave the shop. Doing it right is expensive. Taking pictures and writing copy, as opposed to moving to the next set up, touch up, or fret dress is pretty low on the list of things to do after a conversion.

So far, I've learned quite a bit. I had a defretted bass which had some pretty awful buzz all over the neck and I managed to fix that using the technique documented here. Maybe it's not the ideal method, but it was effective. I truly wanted to use wood veneer, but couldn't find them anywhere, and I wasn't happy to wait a week for them to be shipped. One day I'll bite that bullet and I'll be glad to have this less-than-ideal experience to compare it to.

Congratulations. You have entered a larger, fascinating world. Now's the time to continue research and learning.

Entering "wood veneer" into your browser of choice brings up many sources. As far as expense goes, check out this price list:

B&B Hardwoods

As you can see, it's pretty reasonable. (Divide mm by 25.4 to convert to inches.)

Disclaimer: I have no connection, nor have I done business with B&B. They were the first URL that came up when I did a search. There are many others.

So, a few questions:

1. Doesn't the strength of a guitar neck come from the neck and truss rod rather than the fretboard?

The neck material is the most important because there is more of it than anything else. The fingerboard is next. The truss rod, when under compression, adds some stiffness, too. However, it's main purpose is to manipulate the shape of the neck. The truss rod is just lying there in the channel waiting to be told what to do. Putting the truss rod under compression reinforces the basic stiffness of the neck but is not responsible for it.

Think about this: The truss rod has only been around for ninety years or so. Guitars and similar instruments have been around far longer. At first, the fingerboard was all there was to counteract the pull of the strings. This is why rosewood and ebony were the fingerboards of choice. They are stiffer than mahogany and other neck woods. Eventually, some smart builder decided to add wood reinforcement in the neck via a strip inlaid in a center rout below the fingerboard, just like a truss rod channel. Ebony was the material of choice. That worked well for a long time. Then along came steel strings with high tension (Not flexiblity or feel. That's another thread.) that could turn a mahogany neck into a semi circle. Next smart guy (Thadeus McHugh) came along and patented the truss rod. Voila, steel strings are no longer much of a problem. Now we have aluminum or carbon fiber inlays that further reinforce the neck. But at the end of the day, the thickness and stiffness of the fingerboard still remains as important today as it did in the sixteenth century.

2. Are there any known instances of neck problems caused by weak fretboards with soft fillers replacing the frets? I've actually seen a lot of people ask if they can leave the kerfs empty--which immediately seemed like a terrible idea. (Thanks for that word, I hated calling them fret slots or, even more inaccurately frets.) I can't seem to find it now, but I read here on TB someone mention that their bass was defretted and the kerfs were filled with wood filler and even after 20 years there was no problem.

Every professional repairman has rarely seen this method as a rousing success. Mostly, it is judged as mediocre at best. Personally, almost every putty/filler conversion I've encountered left the instrument with a whippy neck. In most of the cases, the truss rod could no longer pull the neck straight under string tension. Admittedly, most of these instruments were inexpensive. Of course, most people don't yank the frets out of an expensive production guitar. Fewer would do it to a high end piece of exotica.

Certainly some folks have success with this method. Just remember, every piece of wood is different. If the neck is very stiff and the rod is very responsive it minimizes (not eliminates) the effects of the fingerboard. Adding carbon fiber reinforcement also mitigates the need for a stiff fingerboard, somewhat. Is your wood his wood? Better? Worse? Stiffer? Limper? Reinforced? Impossible to tell.

Additionally, what is the criteria for "great action" or "no problems for twenty years" being used by the poster? Is he a cutting edge slapper whose action would make the latest shredding metal god drool? Or is he an old school blues player who thinks 8/64" at the twelfth fret is a tad too low?

Problems are relative.

3. Does using plastic in place of frets have an effect on the tone of the bass? For whatever reason using wood or wood-like products seemed far more appealing to me. But that may just be an unfair bias on my part.

Thanks again!

Everything that is done to the instrument has an effect on tone. The question is, what kind of metering is needed to measure it? Change the pickups, it will be pretty obvious. Replace a bolt on neck, maybe more or less. Strip the paint and oil? Less than that.

Putting a different material in the fret slots will have an effect on the tone. Some people will claim, and I will never contradict, that the effect is profound. As for everyone else, they might even be able to hear it in a quiet room through a flat amp. Will the audience hear it in the mix?

The only time they really notice is when you play an E under an F minor triad.

[marcss]

Points well taken. Thanks again for all the information and suggestions.

All things are relative--I couldn't agree more. This is why I was comfortable with a solution I consider to be less than ideal. I'm not even a novice at this. What I consider a success is, by professional standards, a substandard job at best. I'm okay with that because we all start somewhere.

Sadly the closest brick and mortar I found (Woodcraft) that (likely) carries wood veneer and the right kind of epoxy and/or superglue (in reasonable quantities) is more than 20 miles away (~45 minutes) and they close relatively early (7pm). Not the most convenient trip for me and my schedule. Yes, I can order online, but since I really don't have experience, I need to see product in real life to understand them and to confirm that they are these intangible objects I've read about on an internet forum.

All that said, I may test my patience and hold off on epoxying the neck for now. I've strung up the guitar and it sounds a lot better than it did before. Maybe I'll play it as-is until I get the opportunity to head to Woodcraft for wood veneer.

Thanks again for the very helpful responses. I'm glad I started a new thread because I doubt I would have received the same responses if my story was buried in the 18-page defretting sticky.

[Benjamin Strange]

There's not much more I can add here that hasn't already been said, so I'll keep this brief:

1. Start over. Cut out the stuff you used to fill the slots (kerfs) - and make sure they clean of all debris and glue. You might want to try using a fretting saw.

2. Find an appropriate material to fill the kerfs. You can use plastic, which is available at Stewart MacDonald, or you can get veneers on Ebay super cheap.

3. Get the proper radius block and reshape the neck. You've most likely jacked up the fingerboard shape, and it will need to be set aright, otherwise it will never play properly. Make sure the neck is dead straight before you sand!

[JLS]

This was one wrongheaded project. What you needed to do, was true the neck, sand it, and finish with the material of your choice. Now you need to scrape or rout the woodfiller out of the slots, glue in plastic, preferably, true the neck, sand & refinish.

[marcss]

Originally Posted by JLS

This was one wrongheaded project. What you needed to do, was true the neck, sand it, and finish with the material of your choice. Now you need to scrape or rout the woodfiller out of the slots, glue in plastic, preferably, true the neck, sand & refinish.

Thanks for the encouragement.

[John Wentzien]

Putty was good enough for Jaco!

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

Putty was good enough for Jaco!

Wasn't Jaco's bass noted for having mile-high action and being essentially unplayable by anyone except him?

Originally Posted by marcss

1. Doesn't the strength of a guitar neck come from the neck and truss rod rather than the fretboard?

2. Are there any known instances of neck problems caused by weak fretboards with soft fillers replacing the frets? I've actually seen a lot of people ask if they can leave the kerfs empty--which immediately seemed like a terrible idea. (Thanks for that word, I hated calling them fret slots or, even more inaccurately frets.) I can't seem to find it now, but I read here on TB someone mention that their bass was defretted and the kerfs were filled with wood filler and even after 20 years there was no problem.

3. Does using plastic in place of frets have an effect on the tone of the bass? For whatever reason using wood or wood-like products seemed far more appealing to me. But that may just be an unfair bias on my part.

Thanks again!

Good questions, and good answers above. I'll add another cents' worth....

Much of the strength in a neck comes from the wood, as pointed out above.

Know how a carpenter will bend wood around a curve? One method is to cut many slots across it removing wood, then applying pressure to bend it toward the slots...making it curve. Check this link and look down the page for "Kerf-Cut Bending": http://www.allwoodwork.com/article/w...nding_wood.htm

This is exactly what cutting fret lines potentially does to a neck. The weakening effect is mitigated because there aren't a lot of cuts, and the wood is dense and stiff. BUT - the potential is there.

As far as known instances, I've not a repairman so I haven't seen them - but I've seen them discussed here.

Finally, plastic may have an effect on tone, but if it's audible (a big IF, and one I don't believe), filling the slots with a dense plastic should produce a much better effect than having the slots filled with a composite material with little density or strength. If you want sound waves to travel through the body and neck of an instrument, you don't want putty in their path...it stands to reason that a putty-like material would have more of a damping effect than solid material would.

Those are my thoughts.

[stogy]

Honestly, congratulations on your project and don’t let all the negative criticism get you down.
Coincidentally In just finished my own defret on a 20 tear old Aria that now sounds awesome. Like you, I used wood filler to fill the frets, then found a new cache of threads that foretold all manner of doom. Instead of giving into temptation and filing out the filler and starting again, I forged ahead.
After it was ‘finished’ the first time there were no dreaded ‘dead-spots’, but a there were a few buzzy frets. I eventually finished the neck properly by building a short dam around the neck and pouring about 70 mL of self-levelling epoxy (~2mm deep, Google ‘Nu-Clear’) over the entire thing. I then made a 24 inch flat (gasp!!) sanding block and went from 120 grit to 2000.
I now have an infinite radius (flat) fretless neck that everyone agrees is probably the easiest playing and of my 5 basses (including a Fender Jaguar, Yamaha BB414 and Squier MF Jazz Bass).
All I want to say is go for it. Worse case scenario, you’ll have to sand it down and start again (but I’ll be willing to bet that you won’t have to).

[stogy]

Me again.
Sorry for the typos in the previous message and the wrong product name.
To check out epoxy coatings try 'System 3 Mirror Coat' or 'Industrial Formulators New-Clear'.

[JLS]

Originally Posted by marcss

Thanks for the encouragement.

Anytime, no problem.