Different Intonation Method

[Jake of Bass]

Last week my nut broke on my MM Stingray 5 so I took it into a guitar repairer (called The Guitar Repairers). He charged a bit but did a good job, including setup of truss, and did the action, pickup height and intonation right in front of me.

Everything was pretty standard, however he claimed to have a better method for intonating that didn't involve using a tuner either.

It goes like this:

Intonation for the D string: Play 5th fret and open G, make sure they're in tune. Then play an octave up (17th fret) on the D and play the open G. If they're in tune then play the harmonic at the 12th on the D and an open G, listen for any wavering and if not you have an interval of a perfect 5th and then proceed the same process with 5th on A and open D... for the G he went 7th fret and open D, then (I think) 14th and open D for the 5th + one octave, then the harmonics at the 7th G and 5th D. He had it plugged into a small Vox amp and did it all by ear, then offered me to play in the shop through a bass amp he had in then corner for as long as I liked to make sure I was happy. Which I must say I was.

The theory is that you're intonating the strings with each other, instead of just with themselves. Part of this theory involves the slight tuning inconsistencies along the frets and this is somewhat compensating for those. He also quoted me $50 extra for a compensated nut, but it was the first I've heard of it and I didn't really have the cash, plus I noticed only one guitar on display had it so I didn't deem it necessary.

Anyway, I've searched the net and here for a couple hours now, and noone's mentioned anything of this intonation method.

Thoughts? Comments? I must say my bass is playing really nicely after the truss and action adjustment.

[B4snrise]

I assume he started by tuning the G string and having the bass close to pitch? Interesting theory, I would like to give it a go and see what happens.

[Rick Auricchio]

Wouldn't he have to intonate at least one string to use as a reference?

And the next question is which string gets adjusted when? For example: "listen for any wavering and if not you have an interval of a perfect 5th and then proceed the same process with 5th on A and open D..." If there's a beat (wavering), which string do you adjust?

If you could get the entire procedure documented it might be nice to try some experiments.

[62bass]

Originally Posted by Jake of Bass

Last week my nut broke on my MM Stingray 5 so I took it into a guitar repairer (called The Guitar Repairers). He charged a bit but did a good job, including setup of truss, and did the action, pickup height and intonation right in front of me.

Everything was pretty standard, however he claimed to have a better method for intonating that didn't involve using a tuner either.

It goes like this:

Intonation for the D string: Play 5th fret and open G, make sure they're in tune. Then play an octave up (17th fret) on the D and play the open G. If they're in tune then play the harmonic at the 12th on the D and an open G, listen for any wavering and if not you have an interval of a perfect 5th and then proceed the same process with 5th on A and open D... for the G he went 7th fret and open D, then (I think) 14th and open D for the 5th + one octave, then the harmonics at the 7th G and 5th D. He had it plugged into a small Vox amp and did it all by ear, then offered me to play in the shop through a bass amp he had in then corner for as long as I liked to make sure I was happy. Which I must say I was.

The theory is that you're intonating the strings with each other, instead of just with themselves. Part of this theory involves the slight tuning inconsistencies along the frets and this is somewhat compensating for those. He also quoted me $50 extra for a compensated nut, but it was the first I've heard of it and I didn't really have the cash, plus I noticed only one guitar on display had it so I didn't deem it necessary.

Anyway, I've searched the net and here for a couple hours now, and noone's mentioned anything of this intonation method.

Thoughts? Comments? I must say my bass is playing really nicely after the truss and action adjustment.

This is a method for tuning your bass isn't it, not as in adjusting the length of each string using the screws on the back of each bridge saddle?

Yes, I've seen and used a similar method on guitar (some jazz players did it) and a use a similar method for bass. Works fine for me.

[Zooberwerx]

I recall a similar procedure using the open / 5th / 12th / 17th fretted and harmonics. As the OP states, it was intended to compensate for inconsistencies along the fretboard. I do believe it requires a tuner, though. Hate to think I spent $200 on a Peterson for nuthin'!

Riis

[Jake of Bass]

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

Wouldn't he have to intonate at least one string to use as a reference?

Not necessarily, because you're intonating from that string in the open position only.

And the next question is which string gets adjusted when? For example: "listen for any wavering and if not you have an interval of a perfect 5th and then proceed the same process with 5th on A and open D..." If there's a beat (wavering), which string do you adjust?

If you're intonating the D from the open G, you adjust the D string in this instance.

If you could get the entire procedure documented it might be nice to try some experiments.

He kind of rushed through it even though he told me he'd teach me how it's done, but I'm pretty sure I've got the gist of it.

Get all strings in tune. He used harmonics (the standard 5th fret D/7th fret G and listen for the beats/wavering) but I recommend using a tuner.

Intonate G string (note: if you play a 6 string you'll be intonating the C string and using the G string as your bearing): Play the 7th fret on the G and an open D. Then do the same at the 19th fret (one octave higher). If they're in tune you're laughing; if not adjust intonation accordingly (if the G is sharp move the bridge saddle closer to the bridge (tightening) with a screwdriver and turn the screw at rear of the bridge holding the string saddle by turning it clockwise (lefty loosey, righty tighty). Go counter clockwise if the G string is playing flat in relation to the D string. Once you're happy, move on.

Next, intonate D string: Play D 5th fret and open G. The notes should be in tune. If they are or there's a slight difference, try 17th fret and open G. If the difference is still the same or greater, change the intonation accordingly (if the D is flat then loosen the bridge saddles, moving them toward the neck and vice versa if the D is sharp) until corrected. Re-check, then play the 12th fret harmonic on D and an open G. This gives you an interval of a (perfect) 5th with the G as tonic or root note. If this is also in tune then your strings are intonated with each other.

Continue the process by intonating the A string using the D string as your guide like you did when intonating the D string to the G string. Once you've intonated your E string (or B string, if you play a 5 like me, or a 6) go back and repeat the process with the G. If it's out, check your intonation on the other strings. Once you're happy you should be right.

Note that using this method you're almost never going to get every single point of the bass in tune with it's corresponding "guide string". This is due to every point on any given guitar or bass not being exactly in tune the entire way up the neck. The goal here is to get the bass intonated with the other strings as close as possible, but you'll have to make a few concessions along the way (for example, the 17th on A plays a little sharp with the open D, but it plays nicely at the 5th and the blends nicely with the harmonic on 12th and open D together). As the poster above stated, this method is designed to compensate for inconsistencies along the neck so you have more notes across the neck sounding in tune with each other.

Something else to note is that the B will almost definitely play a little sharp at the 17th, due to it's thick diameter, so intonate according to the 5th fret and 12th harmonic, using the E string as your guide.

I hope that helps clear a few things up.

[Jake of Bass]

Originally Posted by 62bass

This is a method for tuning your bass isn't it, not as in adjusting the length of each string using the screws on the back of each bridge saddle?

Yes, I've seen and used a similar method on guitar (some jazz players did it) and a use a similar method for bass. Works fine for me.

No, you are actually adjusting the intonation with the screws at the back of the bridge saddle. Though when tuning by ear I've used a similar method for years as it gets the bass (works great on guitars too) more in tune with itself, as opposed to one point in tune with another point only (say the 5th fret on E to open A, I'd do this too then check harmonics then check open E and 9th on G, etc).

[Jake of Bass]

Here's a quote I found on here that summarises this method pretty well:

Originally Posted by deaf pea

This IS a common problem . . . I usually adjust intonation at the 12th fret, then check at the 17th fret and at the 5th fret . . .
What I look for is the best AVERAGE intonation in the areas of the neck that I use the most . . .

FWIW, you'll NEVER be able to get ALL of the notes on the neck "exactly" in tune . . . it's physics . . .

E string intonation sharp on frets 1-5

[Jake of Bass]

Something else to add. Found this on the Ernie Ball forums, it was a cut and paste job from the Peterson online VS-II manual (Thanks Motojunkie):

A common method for setting intonation is to compare the 12th fret (pressed) and
12th fret flageolet (harmonic):
• If the fretted note is flat compared to the flageolet note, move the bridge
saddle forward to shorten the string.
• If the fretted note is sharp compared to the flageolet note, move the bridge
saddle back to lengthen the string.
• Adjust until both fretted note and and flageolet are identical in pitch.
While this is a common technique, it is not always the most satisfactory.

Another popular alternative is to adjust each string so that it is in tune at two points an octave
apart from each other on the fretboard with a strobe tuner. Using the 5th and 17th
fret as an example:
• Tune a string at the 5th fret.
• Check the string at the 17th fret. If sharp, move the saddle back to lengthen
the string. If flat, shorten the string by moving the saddle forward.
Remember to fret the string using the pressure that you would normally
apply while playing!
• Repeat this process until each string is in tune as much as possible at both
the 5th and 17th frets.
This method takes time and must be repeated if you change string gauges but, if
properly executed, yields very satisfactory results.

[62bass]

Originally Posted by Jake of Bass

No, you are actually adjusting the intonation with the screws at the back of the bridge saddle. Though when tuning by ear I've used a similar method for years as it gets the bass (works great on guitars too) more in tune with itself, as opposed to one point in tune with another point only (say the 5th fret on E to open A, I'd do this too then check harmonics then check open E and 9th on G, etc).

Okay. That could work well.

I like tuning by ear myself. Works much better for me, and is pretty well essential for guitar.

[Jake of Bass]

Same. Quite often I'll tune with the tuner so the open strings are perfectly in tune then fine tune my own way with my ear so the chords sound better. Which is why this method of adjusting the intonation appeals to me, yet I hadn't heard of it till very recently.

[Fishheadjoe]

I bought the Peterson just last summer and followed the instructions posted below. It's pretty simple and very effective. I can set the intonation on my bass in under five minutes using this method and the strobe tuner.
Yah it was initially expensive, but since the summer, I have set up 4 basses and two guitars... figured I have at least broken even on the tuner and every set up from here on in, will lower the "price per setup" exponentially.
fishheadjoe

[Rick Auricchio]

+1 on the Peterson Strobostomp. I love it for setups, and for onstage tuning.

Thanks, Jake, for the detailed procedure. I've gotta try it.

[Jake of Bass]

No probs. Just keep in mind that you're looking for an average. The better your bass and lower the action is, the closer you'll get to having everything in tune but even then there will be small discrepancies. I wouldn't worry too much if the low B or E is a little out on the 17th fret if the 5th frets and 12th harmonics are in because you'll rarely play notes up that high on those strings. With the others, think more of the positions you commonly play and adjust accordingly. Bit of experimentation and you'll find it'll sound better. Mine does anyway.

[JLS]

Originally Posted by Jake of Bass

No probs. Just keep in mind that you're looking for an average. The better your bass and lower the action is, the closer you'll get to having everything in tune but even then there will be small discrepancies. I wouldn't worry too much if the low B or E is a little out on the 17th fret if the 5th frets and 12th harmonics are in because you'll rarely play notes up that high on those strings. With the others, think more of the positions you commonly play and adjust accordingly. Bit of experimentation and you'll find it'll sound better. Mine does anyway.

I agree--deal with the real world of playing. Realise that NO fretted instrument will have all the notes in tune at all the frets; playing perfect fifths and major thirds on adjacent strings will tell all...

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by 62bass

I like tuning by ear myself. Works much better for me, and is pretty well essential for guitar.

Makes sense to me. To semi-quote the current Sony hi-def TV commercials, "if you're listening by ear, shouldn't you tune and intonate by ear?"

If it sounds good, it IS good.

[Jake of Bass]

Originally Posted by JLS

I agree--deal with the real world of playing. Realise that NO fretted instrument will have all the notes in tune at all the frets; playing perfect fifths and major thirds on adjacent strings will tell all...

Exactly. And when I played the 5ths and thirds on adjacent strings (3rds also over an octave apart - play C on the E string (8th fret) and E on the G string (9th fret) I found them all to sound amazing. It sounded good before but now they sound more 'pure' if that makes sense.