Does reverse headstock improve low B - any experience?

[8_finger]

I have a project P bass with standard tuning EADG . The bass has allparts P neck with standard fender headstock. Since I had some extra time today I decided to switch strings around to BEAD and the low B was beyond horrible. Even after set-upping the whole bass.
Does anyone play reverse headstock bass with BEAD tuning and is the low B usable? I'm not asking tight, just usable. You know, not sounding like a flabby farts.

Bass is frankenfender with allparts maple/RW P neck, alder P body, custom PJ pickups, all passive, Hipshot A bridge and Hipshot tuners.

[darthplagis]

technically it should not affect tone, since the string is intoned via the distace between the nut and bridge saddle.

a properly set up bass should have a nut that is tight enough to hold pitch (along with the tuners of course) and have a nice defined break angle at the bridge saddle.

a zero fret could be of more benefit than a longer after nut distance

[countbassiedad]

Distance from nut to saddle would be the same, but Gary Willis 101 bass tips talks about using a spacer at the bridge which would be a similar concept. Maybe it would help.

Of course flats or heavier guage strings could help too. Almost any flatwould besides Thomastiks will have plenty of tension. Ernie Balls, Daddarios and Roto77 are all quite bright for flats and might do it for you.

[8_finger]

Thank you for the assistance. I know the spacer trick, but alas I don't have some lying around the house. Might go to a hardware store in a couple of days to hunt spacers.
I was just wondering if the reverse headstock does actually improve the tightness of low B.

I was just wondering if someone had experience with this sort of thing, before I sink money in yet another modification of the franken P.

Disclaimer:
my main bass is 35'' neck through that has amazing low B, I do not expect the reverse headstock to make it as good as my n/t with 35'' scale.
I would be satisfied if the experiment yields usable, e.g. EBMM low B tightness results. Currently my franken P is not really in that range.

The strings that I am using are Fodera Diamond Nickel Md Light 44-125 set, not new.

[countbassiedad]

Juststrings might have a single B string - going to 135 could help too.

[mech]

Originally Posted by 8_finger

....and the low B was beyond horrible..... Does anyone play reverse headstock bass with BEAD tuning and is the low B usable? I'm not asking tight, just usable. You know, not sounding like a flabby farts.

Just to make sure, does the B string have a twist in it? And just for grins, if the B string doesn't have a twist in it try muting the B string between the top nut and the tuner with foam or something. It could be a long enough section to ring and have a low enough fundamental to add weirdness to the note you're playing.

Although the tension of a string of a particular scale length tuned to a particular frequency is set, the overall length of the string will affect the feel and sound unless the string is firmly clamped at the bridge and top nut so those portions are taken out of the system.

edit: What guage strings are you using? Should be at least .125 for the B.
With the B tuner being the farthest from the topnut, the break angle is going to be pretty shallow. Might try a string tree to help get some down force on the topnut

mech

[8_finger]

Originally Posted by mech

What guage strings are you using? Should be at least .125 for the B.

Originally Posted by 8_finger

The strings that I am using are Fodera Diamond Nickel Md Light 44-125 set, not new.

Just to clarify: my current bass has standard headstock, not reverse.

My question (simplified) is: Does the reverse headstock have impact on tightness of low B?

[lowfreq33]

It shouldn't. I've found that hex core strings do help as they're stiffer than round core.

[Turnaround]

Originally Posted by mech

Although the tension of a string of a particular scale length tuned to a particular frequency is set, the overall length of the string will affect the feel and sound unless the string is firmly clamped at the bridge and top nut so those portions are taken out of the system.

Please note, since there is a LOT of misinformation about this, increasing string length beyond the nut and/or the saddles will not produce more tension, nor will it make it feel stiffer. In fact the string will actually be stretchier with the addition of afterlengths. I know that for a fact since I measured both the tension and the amount of string deflection with a constant force. More string afterlength = more deflection unless the string is clamped at the bridge and nut. I tried it with varying amounts of string afterlength, different string composition, different gauges, different brands. The results were consistent.

[String Theory]

A reverse headstock will not increase the tension of the B string.

Increasing the mass of the B string will make it tighter. I use Circle K strings .142. I have never had any success with a B string smaller than a .135.

[FunkMetalBass]

According to physics, the reverse headstock does nothing of the sort.

Three things will increase tension of a string: a longer scale length, a string with more mass (typically a larger gauge), and increasing the pitch. Nothing else.

If you find a B-string to be too floppy, you may need a heavier gauge, or a stiffer string (note: stiffness and tension are different measurements and are effectively independent of each other).

[bongomania]

Bear in mind that fretting a note and plucking the string pulls the string longitudinally as well, so the tension felt is NOT just the tension measured perpendicular to the string.

[4001]

36" scale will.

[Ric5]

Steps to a better low B.

1 - a good set of strings
2 - a good setup

[mech]

Originally Posted by 8_finger

My question (simplified) is: Does the reverse headstock have impact on tightness of low B?

Yes. See Turnaround's post #9. He 'splained it better than I did.
The more length between the topnut and the tuner or the bridge saddle and the anchor point, the floppier the string will feel.

mech

[Turnaround]

Originally Posted by mech

Yes. See Turnaround's post #9. He 'splained it better than I did.
The more length between the topnut and the tuner or the bridge saddle and the anchor point, the floppier the string will feel.

mech

Right, but I should have mentioned that an inch or two makes very little difference. It's measurable, but humanly discernable? - I doubt it.

[mbelue]

So I've thought all day on this and the only upshot I can see would be: decreased chance of outer windings on the tuning post. Would give you some flexibility in string choice, which could lead you to better sounding B's.

[mech]

Originally Posted by Turnaround

Right, but I should have mentioned that an inch or two makes very little difference. It's measurable, but humanly discernable? - I doubt it.

The B string on the G tuner will add about 15% to the overall string length and adds to the "spring". I'd be willing to bet a beer it will be noticeable. If this was something I had to do I'd be looking at adding a string tree.

mech

[8_finger]

Thank you all for taking the time to post answers to my dilemma.

I thing I'm getting thicker low B and new nut for the bass and see where it goes from there.
That's cheaper than a lefty neck anyway

[bongomania]

I was talking this evening with a friend of mine who's a materials engineer, and asked him about string tension in re the witness points and the end points. He said that both the tension and the stress would be dependent on the force applied at the end points. The force applied by the witness points (upward, into the string) is exactly equal to the force at the end points (downward). The longer the distance between the end point and the witness point, the more force is required to achieve a given tension between the two witness points. And if the distance between the end point and witness point at one end is different from the distance between points at the other end, then different amounts of force are being applied at each end. Consequently, given any one specific string, the amount of force applied to that string to achieve a given pitch at a given scale length will depend on the length of string between the nut and the tuning machine! So even though the string between the witness points will have the same nominal tension regardless of that extra length, the amount of force applied definitely changes the amount of flexibility of the string.