E string intonation sharp on frets 1-5

matthewlein · #1 04-08-2008, 04:06 PM

Hey,

I recently got a 75 jazz reissue, which is pretty amazing, but I'm having an intonation problem. I set up everything and the A D G strings are perfectly intoned (is that a word?) but the E string is very sharp close to the head and gets progressively better as I approach 12th fret. It's acceptable beyond the 5th fret and it's right on for the 12th fret, 12th harmonic and the open octave.

From what I've been able to find online it seems like a nut problem to me. I'm not familiar with nut adjustments, but I imagine the E groove is either too high or too low.

If it's too low, what can I do? If too high, I can just file it down, right?

Andrew Jones · #2 04-08-2008, 04:12 PM

I'm not sure it could be the nuts high but usually that only pulls the first fret or two sharp.

You might need something like what music man is doing with nuts these days. I know that is a Classical guitar thing and I had a similar problem once years ago. Thats what my luithier did.

Aj

theshadow2001 · #3 04-08-2008, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthewlein

The A D G strings are perfectly intoned (is that a word?)

Nope. Intonated is though.

I didn't think that it was about the nut being high or low. But the break angle at the nut is further back within the nut itself rather than at the very front edge and the solution was to file the slot at a slight angle sloping down to the head stock. But thats just stuff I've read on the internet so what do I know?

J.D.B. · #4 04-08-2008, 06:15 PM

Once the string is fretted, does the nut have any effect? The string is stopped ahead of it. I could see if the action was real high that you could pull it sharp, but that would be about it?
Josh

black_labb · #5 04-08-2008, 06:33 PM

id think it was the break angle on the nut as well, making the string vibrte from the back of the nut, not the front. the open string length doesnt matter when the bass is fretted, except for the fact that you will be tuning it to the open string, and if the thing is an extra 5mm long, then you will be quite off. when they set the intonation they would have used the 12th fret and the harmonic above it, which would be why it is perfect there.

jrfrond · #6 04-08-2008, 07:17 PM

It's not the break angle/take-off point. If it was, the intonation would be piss-poor father up the neck.

It sounds like nut height to me. Also, if those are the factory strings, try changing them first.

theshadow2001 · #7 04-08-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrfrond

It's not the break angle/take-off point. If it was, the intonation would be piss-poor father up the neck.

It sounds like nut height to me. Also, if those are the factory strings, try changing them first.

I don't think so since you intonate at the 12th fret generally. If you used the 5th fret to intonate then it would probably be ok for the first 5 or so frets and then start going out of whack further up the neck.

matthewlein · #8 04-09-2008, 08:24 AM

Update:

After reading a bit more online from others having similar problems, I found that if I press very lightly, the sharp frets play in tune, it's when I press normally that they go sharp. More reasons to sound like a nut height problem.

Not factory strings, but I'll put on another E that I have to see what happens.

The E groove break angle sounds like it might be promising, conceptually I think that makes sense. It's just that I'm hesitant to do filing unless I know that's a possible solution.

A friend of mine has used a mix of superglue and something to fill in the nut groove and then file from there. What have you guys used?

jtmjtm45 · #9 04-09-2008, 09:33 AM

press the low e at the 3rd fret.Slide a feeler guage under the string at the first fret.if you have more than say .010 .015 under the string gently lower the nut slot one stroke at a time .that should cure the sharpness .also ramp the back of the nut slot as posted by others here.go to far and youll need a new nut!!! my .o2 cents

matthewlein · #10 04-09-2008, 10:12 AM

Thanks, I'll give it a whirl.

jrfrond · #11 04-09-2008, 03:30 PM

The Equation is:

High Nut + Low Tension = Intonation Problems.

If the nut is high, you need to apply more pressure to fret the string near the nut, due to reduced flexibility. In the middle of the string, there's PLENTY of flexibility. This is true for ANY strings, but as they get thicker, it gets tougher to press down near the nut.

deaf pea · #12 04-09-2008, 04:04 PM

This IS a common problem . . . I usually adjust intonation at the 12th fret, then check at the 17th fret and at the 5th fret . . .
What I look for is the best AVERAGE intonation in the areas of the neck that I use the most . . .

FWIW, you'll NEVER be able to get ALL of the notes on the neck "exactly" in tune . . . it's physics . . .

**Thor** · #13 04-09-2008, 04:08 PM

That's a 'well-tempered' answer.

BadB · #14 04-09-2008, 04:16 PM

Fretted instruments won't have perfect intonation at all frets. Compensated nuts and fanned frets get you a lot closer.

matthewlein · #15 04-14-2008, 06:24 PM

Update:

Tits on, guys. Tits on.

I filed down the nut to break at a sharper angle and its really close now.

Conceptually now I sort of understand why that would fix it (although its hard to explain). the frets close to the head would be most affected by that extra mm of string length from the nut and then as you go further down the neck that mm is relatively less so the notes aren't affected as much.

Once I filed the nut, the 12th fret went flat (as it should for gaining a mm of length) and I knew I was home free.

A tip for anyone doing the same thing, you could line the inside of the nut groove with black sharpie so that as you file you can see where you've taken away.