Extra overtones on P-Bass open A-string

[tonebrulee]

Wondering if others have dealt with this problem. The open A-string on my P-Bass has a good bit of extra harmonic content/overtones beyond the fundamental. I wouldn't go so far to call it a "wolf tone", but it's pretty apparent. The effect is still strong with the A-string fretted on the 1st fret, is much less by the 3rd fret, and is gone by the 5th fret. FWIW - I've noticed the same problem to varying degrees on many P-bass's as well as other 34" scale 4-strings. If I were playing bright wound-round strings the problem would be less of an issue, but I like a classic P-bass thump and this is happening with a set of La Bella flats. I tried swapping out with a Roto flatwound A-string and the overtones were even more apparent. I've also checked out the various likely culprits - bridge, pickup height, etc. - and it doesn't seem to be any of those. My understanding is that this kind of issue has to do with the overall resonance of the instrument at the specific problem tone. But it's also the case that the same tone on the E-string at the 5th fret doesn't have the problem. Anybody care to fill me in on what's happening and what might be done to lessen the effect? Thanks.

[walterw]

look at the length of string behind the nut.

fender basses need extra winds on the A string, or the lack of down angle over the nut will cause it to rattle weirdly.

[tonebrulee]

Originally Posted by walterw

look at the length of string behind the nut.

fender basses need extra winds on the A string, or the lack of down angle over the nut will cause it to rattle weirdly.

Yeah, understand that but it's not that either. Have the A-string down angle handled properly and also, the effect is still very strong when fretted at the 1st and 2nd frets - pretty sure this is an issue with the resonance of the instrument overall and that it is a fairly common effect for 34" scale P-Bass 4-stringers (I'd imagine basses with other scales and/or different neck-to-body weight ratios might have problems with other specific tones). Like I said, I've found the effect in many P-Bass's as well as other 34" scale solid body 4-stringers. I've read some stuff that suggests this is partly why some builders like to add carbon fiber reinforcing rods to their necks.

Ideally, I'd love to hear from an experienced builder who understands this issue through and through and if there are any ways to lessen the effect. Or maybe whether the effect would lessen over time as the instrument ages.

[Metal Mitch]

Originally Posted by tonebrulee

the effect is still very strong when fretted at the 1st and 2nd frets - pretty sure this is an issue with the resonance of the instrument overall and that it is a fairly common effect for 34" scale P-Bass 4-stringers (I'd imagine basses with other scales and/or different neck-to-body weight ratios might have problems with other specific tones). Like I said, I've found the effect in many P-Bass's as well as other 34" scale solid body 4-stringers. I've read some stuff that suggests this is partly why some builders like to add carbon fiber reinforcing rods to their necks.

You've already proven it's not a resonance issue with a certain pitch. And the same problem can occur with or without stiffening rods.

File off some of the backside of the bridge saddle, so you get a cleaner angle down to the tailpiece.

[tonebrulee]

Originally Posted by Metal Mitch

You've already proven it's not a resonance issue with a certain pitch.

I see what you mean, but I should have said a certain pitch on the A-string because 440Hz on the A-string along the full length of the neck is going to cause the instrument as a whole to resonate differently than 440Hz along the length of the E-string starting at the 5th fret. That's also partly why the same tone played on different strings will have a different overall character - that and the weight of the string. I'll give your idea about the bridge break angle a try though by bringing the saddle as far back as possible. Thanks.

[tonebrulee]

Originally Posted by tonebrulee

I'll give your idea about the bridge break angle a try though by bringing the saddle as far back as possible. Thanks.

No improvement from a sharper break angle. I also tested de-tuning the D-string down to A and it showed the same problem. Suggests that it really is an issue with 440Hz across the full length of the neck, which is what I'd expect b/c as I've said, I've found this problem on many 34" scale 4-stringers. Question is - what is different about those instruments that DON'T have the additional overtones?

Anybody out there have a P-Bass where the open A-string registers a clean fundamental with no overtones, just like the open E-string?

[walterw]

string instruments are full of overtones on all but the very highest notes, that doesn't make any sense.

if one pitch resonates in a more "interesting" way than another, i suspect that's just the nature of the beast.

[Metal Mitch]

Originally Posted by tonebrulee

Anybody out there have a P-Bass where the open A-string registers a clean fundamental with no overtones, just like the open E-string?

I think the opposite is more frequently the case... weak E string syndrome.

At this point, I'm leaning toward a nut slot issue. Could be too wide, or too flat. This is on the Squier listed in your profile? If it's a plastic nut, just plunk down the $10 for a pre-slotted Graph Tech. A Fender cyclovac replacement nut is even cheaper, but IME the GT has better consistency across all the strings.

[tonebrulee]

Originally Posted by Metal Mitch

I think the opposite is more frequently the case... weak E string syndrome.

At this point, I'm leaning toward a nut slot issue. Could be too wide, or too flat. This is on the Squier listed in your profile? If it's a plastic nut, just plunk down the $10 for a pre-slotted Graph Tech. A Fender cyclovac replacement nut is even cheaper, but IME the GT has better consistency across all the strings.

Not the Squier, though that bass has the same issue. This is a custom built P-Bass I am putting together (build thread here) - Warmoth body and a beautiful, chunky rosewood board neck from Musikraft. I'm pretty experienced at nut crafting and made the nut myself from a bone blank. Also, note that I explained the effect is strong at with the A-string fretted on the first fret too.

[tonebrulee]

Originally Posted by walterw

string instruments are full of overtones on all but the very highest notes, that doesn't make any sense.

if one pitch resonates in a more "interesting" way than another, i suspect that's just the nature of the beast.

Hey Walter - see from your profile that you might be a repair pro? Is this issue of overly strong overtones on the open A-string of a P-bass not something you have come across fairly frequently?

Also, not sure what you're referring to re: "that doesn't make any sense" - could you explain? Thanks.

[timmus]

I had a bass (my California series Special) that had a sound on the A string almost like what I would describe as a "chorusy" sound, but only on an open string. It turned out to be it's slot was too wide in the nut. I recut a new nut and the sound went away.
I can't tell you why it did that except that I chased that problem for several months...it was only after I described the problem to a guitar tech friend of mine that he was able to nail it down.....his first question was, "Is it's nut slot too wide"?

[tonebrulee]

Originally Posted by timmus

I had a bass (my California series Special) that had a sound on the A string almost like what I would describe as a "chorusy" sound, but only on an open string. It turned out to be it's slot was too wide in the nut. I recut a new nut and the sound went away.
I can't tell you why it did that except that I chased that problem for several months...it was only after I described the problem to a guitar tech friend of mine that he was able to nail it down.....his first question was, "Is it's nut slot too wide"?

The "chorusy" descriptions sounds about right, though I wouldn't expect the nut to be involved in my case b/c the effect is still strong on the 1st fret. But I gave it a try by putting some felt between the string and the nut slot - no difference.

[lbwdog]

My first thought would be a defective string, but it's still there with a string change. Next, I would suspect either a bridge or nut issue. Another thing that can produce some weird tones is the string being too close to the pickup magnet.

BTW, open "A" is three octaves away from 440, and is actually 55Hz.

[tonebrulee]

Originally Posted by lbwdog

My first thought would be a defective string, but it's still there with a string change. Next, I would suspect either a bridge or nut issue. Another thing that can produce some weird tones is the string being too close to the pickup magnet.

BTW, open "A" is three octaves away from 440, and is actually 55Hz.

Hey lbwdog - ruled out the nut, bridge & pickup though experimenting. Thanks for the thought though. Defective string is unlikely, but it could be that another string might show less of a problem. I'm thinking of ordering a single LaBella .089 A-string (or maybe just try the full 760M set) to see if it fares better than the .082 that comes in the Deep Talkin' 760FL set I've got.

re: 55Hz - Doink!! I was just thinking about that last night, remembering that a tuning fork is 440Hz but the open-A on a bass must be much lower - thanks!

[HogieWan]

how do you put strings on the bass? is it possible that the string is twisted during installation?

[tonebrulee]

Originally Posted by HogieWan

how do you put strings on the bass? is it possible that the string is twisted during installation?

Hmmmmm - interesting thought. I doubt it's twisted now, but I wonder what would happen if it was twisted on purpose? Gotta give that a try.

[Chasarms]

Try jacking up the action really high on the string to see if it helps. Sometimes a slightly high fret can touch the string just enough at the initial attack to exaggerate a harmonic. If the ultra high action does anything, you need some fret work.

[tonebrulee]

Originally Posted by Chasarms

Try jacking up the action really high on the string to see if it helps. Sometimes a slightly high fret can touch the string just enough at the initial attack to exaggerate a harmonic. If the ultra high action does anything, you need some fret work.

Nope - action is medium high to begin with and the effect is present even when the string is plucked lightly where the string comes nowhere near a fret.

[tonebrulee]

Originally Posted by tonebrulee

Hmmmmm - interesting thought. I doubt it's twisted now, but I wonder what would happen if it was twisted on purpose? Gotta give that a try.

Nope - still there with or without the string being twisted.

[Chasarms]

Chuck it in a wood chipper and buy another one!!