Fender American Standard and A string rattle

Antipodean · #1 06-30-2011, 05:45 AM

I'm having the dreaded A string rattle behind the nut of my new American Standard P Bass. After posting this problem, the general consensus was to resting and add more windings. So I went ahead only to notice that the American Standard tuners don't allow the string windings to go down low enough to stop the buzz. I can't get more than 3 windings.
I never had a problem with my Mexican P bass. I was able to find these two pics (not mine, but indicative):
Older style - http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ALkdYXaIbC...adamgordon.jpg
American Standard - http://www.theaudiolab.com.au/images.../headstock.jpg

So what can I check now? How can I check the nut to tell if it's cut too low?
Or is this just a design flaw?

I'm trying to find out if there is an easy fix or if I need to take it back to the show for a warranty issue (it's under warranty).

john grey · #2 06-30-2011, 08:15 AM

I can see your concern. However, "rattle" may be several issues & more info is needed.
Does this occur when the Bass is un-amplified?
Does this noise occur from the INSIDE of the neck?
Does the noise stop if the saddles are raised?

It's vital that the Bass is tested when amplified and the Bass played at the "string plucking level" that is used when normal playing conditions are met.

IF the noise occurs WITHIN the neck, then the Bass should be returned as that would indicate a problem w/ the Truss-rod seating (place you ear to the neck; pluck string at normal tension, etc).
However it superficially seems like a nut-cut issue wherein the nut has little to no angle downward at the 'tuner end" allowing the string to drop downward. This can be alleviated very easily with a very light slope to the rear of the nut. When brass nuts were very common this issue was also. The simplest method was to design a nut shape that did not make a flat "U" but rather a "V"; allowing the string to make a sharp contact & not move regardless of it's size (to a degree).

If the noise stops when saddles are raised, it may indicate fret height issues (fret-dressing, seating, etc) or nut cut issues, Truss-rod adjustment, & so forth.

Many, if not most Basses can be made to sound inappropriate if plucked when un-amplified and with sufficient strength & direction to knock against the fret. However this is not a common playing position when amplified obviously. A low action can sound wonderful when played amplified and with a gentle touch that is appropriate for height position. Yet often at that point the string may clatter when plucked in an un-amplified state & in a direction that would rarely be used in normal playing, etc. Appropriate relief may be too much with a different set of strings. The tension may be too light for a tightened Truss-rod & the original size / type of strings alleviates the problem (or adjusting the rod tension).

Antipodean · #3 07-01-2011, 02:37 AM

The title may have unintentinally been misleading. It's not "a string is rattling" it's "the A string is rattling" - as in EADG, the 3rd string (the all-too-common Fender-type problem).

I have narrowed it down to occuring behind the nut, and have a temporary and unasthetic solution which involves tying a shoestring between the E and A string to give a little more angle, and the bass is rattle free - but's it's an ugly stopgap measure.
I currently don't have an amp so can't tell if it's can be heard amplified.

I'm trying to come up with a solution:
a) leave as is with a shoe string hanging from the headstock
b) buy a Hipshot string retainer and drill holes in the headstock to install it
c) take it back to the store to get checked out to see if the nut is cut too low

Cheers

john grey · #4 07-01-2011, 09:45 AM

Without checking it out when amplified and played as you normally would (of course don't "try" to make it sound poorly) I would hold off on spending any money what so ever.

I understand where you're coming from but without playing it normally and amplified; it is simply an assumption that you have a problem (as odd as that appears). I have noodled around with some beautifully sounding instruments, un-amplified; and they buzzed like crazy. but when plugged in and played as i normally would (even slapping fast and sloppy) they sounded great. Please wait before spending or changing anything.

**Syco_bass** · #5 07-01-2011, 10:28 AM

Your issue is very common on Fender headstock type instruments. IMO, unless this is a vintage instrument that has high value in the "Unmodified" state, then the best and most complete solution is to buy a Hipshot 3 string string retainer. They can be purchased pretty easily on line.

If this is a "collector" type instrument, and don't want to drill holes in it, then you can try using a vibration dampener made by Tesla. You can see them here - Vibration Damper | Tesla Pickups

PM me if you would like info on where to get one.

Good luck.

walterw · #6 07-01-2011, 01:06 PM

american standard basses have worked fine for decades now. (my '96 P has no such issues.)

you may indeed have an issue with the nut slot being too wide, which along with the shallower angle might allow that string to still bounce around in the slot.

grisezd · #7 07-01-2011, 01:44 PM

The cool kids wrap a hair tie around the neck above the nut, ostensibly to act as a mute for open strings when tapping. When I built my Jazz, before my string retainer arrived, I got away with that for a while. I kind of miss it now, it became a little friend.

john grey · #8 07-01-2011, 01:52 PM

IMO the right thing would be to take it to the store so as to at least play it amplified. At that point they could address any issue if one exists, therefore you're not spending money needlessly or applying a "fix" to that which is not broken.

OtisRocks · #9 11-11-2011, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipodean

I'm having the dreaded A string rattle behind the nut of my new American Standard P Bass. After posting this problem, the general consensus was to resting and add more windings. So I went ahead only to notice that the American Standard tuners don't allow the string windings to go down low enough to stop the buzz. I can't get more than 3 windings.
I never had a problem with my Mexican P bass. I was able to find these two pics (not mine, but indicative):
Older style - http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ALkdYXaIbC...adamgordon.jpg
American Standard - http://www.theaudiolab.com.au/images.../headstock.jpg

So what can I check now? How can I check the nut to tell if it's cut too low?
Or is this just a design flaw?

I'm trying to find out if there is an easy fix or if I need to take it back to the show for a warranty issue (it's under warranty).

Did this ever get resolved?
I'm having exactly the same issue with my newly acquired 2011 American Standard P-Bass.

Lowbrow · #10 11-11-2011, 04:59 PM

The 60th-Anniversary Precision sports a cool A-string retainer:

OtisRocks · #11 11-11-2011, 05:11 PM

Cool.

Hopefully my local Fender service center has one of those in stock.

bassmeknik · #12 11-11-2011, 05:28 PM

My 1975 P has had a second string tree on it since the early eighties. My problem was only happening when I played open third string. A#/Bb and all notes above played perfectly but open A rattled. My second string tree only holds the A string down. Strange looking for some but works great, no more rattle.

Antipodean · #13 11-12-2011, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OtisRocks

Did this ever get resolved?
I'm having exactly the same issue with my newly acquired 2011 American Standard P-Bass.

I "solved" it by using a shoestring to pull the 4th & 3rd strings together behind the nut. It doesn't need much tension, and it ain't pretty, but it worked. I had to sell the bass to pay for medical bills, so I wasn't able to come up with a proper fix, but I did also see the new string retainer tree tuning peg thing that is on the deluxe models. The shop at the time said they weren't available as a part (that was about 3 months ago).

If Fender sold those deluxe model tuners separately, they would probably have a pretty good revenue stream from it.

fourfinger · #14 11-12-2011, 04:33 PM

I had an A-string rattle I was puzzled by for a while until I figured out it was actually the E-string being smacked against the fretboard every time I finger-plucked the A. Raised the action and problem solved. Probably would have been fine to replace with stiffer strings, too; these were Thomastik Jazz flats.

To check this, try using a pick with down-only strokes on the A string, and making sure not to touch the E. Is the rattle gone? If not, then it is something different.

walterw · #15 11-13-2011, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowbrow

The 60th-Anniversary Precision sports a cool A-string retainer:

as cool an idea as that is, i just had to fix a bass with that very addition to the A string that was still rattling on the open A.

turns out the nut slot was a little too wide and flat, allowing the string to bounce around and create that noise.

a quick swipe with my .060" file created a "track" in the middle of the A slot for the string to ride in, eliminating the rattle.

OtisRocks · #16 11-13-2011, 10:41 AM

Thanks walterw,

Since this will be a warrantee repair I will take it in and let their techs solve the problem for me.

The string tree idea looks promising (thanks lowbrow and bassmeknik) but a poorly cut nut could also explain the buzz I'm getting. The buzz only occurs when digging in on the open A string and can be eliminated by lightly placing a finger on the string between the tuner and the nut. The buzz isn't really noticeable when playing through an amp but I still want it fixed.

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

tstone · #17 11-13-2011, 11:23 AM

I recently converted a MIM P to fretless. Because the nut slots were cut deeper by the height of a fret wire, the break angle on the A string was hopeless. I solved it by removing the A string tuner and introducing a spacer between the tuner mounting plate and the headstock. This lowered the tuning post by the thickness of the spacer, problem solved.