Fender MIM Jazz: Shim or fretwork?

[perucci]

Based on the Fender site (http://www.fender.com/support/basses.php), shimming seems like a pretty common setup step.

This leads me to a few (related) questions:

• Are there any "rules of thumb" for distinguishing between bad fretwork and the need for a shim?
• Any tips re: determining neck-angle (I'd prefer to minimize "experimentation")?
• Any tips re: not stripping the screw-holes in the neck (other than avoiding cross-threading)?
• Any good books/references on the subject?

I've got what are presumably the proper tools for basic setup (allen-wrenches, ruler measuring 64ths/inch, capo, etc.). I've also got a couple of decent straight-edges where I'll be checking the fretwork a bit, but I don't really know what tolerances I'm dealing with.

Short of a shim or fretwork I've got my action about as good as I can by adjusting relief and string-height, but at about 7/64 at the 17th fret, it is high enough I'd like to improve it. Based on measurements between the frets and string between 12th and 20th fret, it looks like my neck angle is just about 0, but I don't know the "proper method" for determining neck angle.

[lonote]

You use a shim when there is no more adjustment possible at the bridge but you need more adjustment space. In other words, you have the bridge lowered all the way but the strings are still too high off the fretboard. If you do a search, you'll find all you need to know about shimming. It isn't rocket science but it does require a bit of patience, especially the first time or two.

[perucci]

Originally Posted by lonote

You use a shim when there is no more adjustment possible at the bridge but you need more adjustment space. In other words, you have the bridge lowered all the way but the strings are still too high off the fretboard. If you do a search, you'll find all you need to know about shimming. It isn't rocket science but it does require a bit of patience, especially the first time or two.

I've done quite a few google and TB searches on "shim" but have not seen much that is precise regarding fine adjustments. I've see a lot of posts with people who have incredibly high action and the bridge saddles can't be made low enough, and a lot of vague references, but I'm really looking for something more detailed.

My MIM Jazz bass already has "pretty good" action (7/64"), but I'm trying to get it as good as I can on my own. Ultimately, I'll probably want to get some fret-filing done by a good luthier/tech, but for now, I'd like to "make do" with what I can do on my own.

As I read more, I'm not at-all sure if a shim is what I need, but I'd still like to read-up on the issue.

[perucci]

Originally Posted by Joshua

If all else is adjusted correctly and you would still like lower action, a shim is an easy experiment.

If you are not afraid of the operation, pop the neck off and put a single business card in the neck pocket. Re-attach the neck and readjust all the variables.

If you don't like the results, reverse the above and c'mon back to discuss.

Good luck!

I was hoping you'd chime-in...
...I've seen a number of posts from you as I've done searches.

The biggest thing I'm concerned with is not stripping or even weakening the threads in the neck (of the screws that attach the neck to the body). I've done some woodworking over the years so I wouldn't do anything too stupid, but being simply wood, too much loosening and tightening will wear the threads.

The first thing I'm wondering is whether I want a positive (angled into the body) or negative neck angle. My intuition tells me I want to have a bit more of a positive angle (which would require lowering the saddles), but I'd prefer to learn from the experience of others before weakening the wooden threads in my neck.

My bass is quite playable at the moment and I'm still fine-tuning the relief (still a wee bit too concave I think). Given the cost of mistakes, though, and the time needed for this ol' dog to learn new tricks, I'm trying to think ahead a bit. I'm definitely going to to play with the relief a bit more first (spec is 0.012"; I have about twice that), but my sense is that I'm approaching the limits of the combination of my fretwork, neck angle and overall contour of my fretboard.

I also plan on breaking-out a straight-edge and seeing if I find any obviously high (or low) frets. Filing, though, I'd leave to a "pro".

[202dy]

Originally Posted by perucci

Based on the Fender site (http://www.fender.com/support/basses.php), shimming seems like a pretty common setup step.

This leads me to a few (related) questions:

• Are there any "rules of thumb" for distinguishing between bad fretwork and the need for a shim?
• Any tips re: determining neck-angle (I'd prefer to minimize "experimentation")?
• Any tips re: not stripping the screw-holes in the neck (other than avoiding cross-threading)?
• Any good books/references on the subject?

I've got what are presumably the proper tools for basic setup (allen-wrenches, ruler measuring 64ths/inch, capo, etc.). I've also got a couple of decent straight-edges where I'll be checking the fretwork a bit, but I don't really know what tolerances I'm dealing with.

Short of a shim or fretwork I've got my action about as good as I can by adjusting relief and string-height, but at about 7/64 at the 17th fret, it is high enough I'd like to improve it. Based on measurements between the frets and string between 12th and 20th fret, it looks like my neck angle is just about 0, but I don't know the "proper method" for determining neck angle.

1. Short straight edges are used to find high frets. If there are high spots they will help you locate them in a hurry.

2. You get to experiment like everybody else. You will learn much and understand the mechanics much better. There is a long tool that can be cobbled together to imitate the tool that violin makers use but I am not aware of anyone that uses a something like that in guitar repair. The ease of unbolting an rebolting the neck makes a tool like this unnecessary.

3. Reverse the direction of the screw until it the screw threads find the threads in the neck. Then drive the screw home. Remember always that it is a metal screw into a wooden workpiece. When it feels tight it is tight. You are not torquing a flywheel onto a racing engine. If you are using much more than your wrist to turn the screw driver it is probably too much.

4. Guitar Player Repair Guide by Dan Erlewine is pretty much the standard text. It is an easy read and covers the topic of guitar repair completely. There are others that discuss the topic from a builders standpoint.

If you already own long straight edges, throw away the capo, get some feeler gauges, and forget about the seventeenth fret. High C is for kids. String height measurements are taken at the twelfth and last fret. That gives you data at the mid point and the end of the fret board. The height at the nut has very little effect on string height unless the nut is unusually high. Relief is measured at the seventh fret. The tolerances are +/- .001" for relief. Tolerances are half a sixty-fourth for string height. Basic spec for a medium low setup is 6/64" and 5/64" string height at the twelfth fret measured from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string, bass and treble respectively. Relief is measured from the top of the seventh fret to the bottom of the straight edge. It is ~.012", however it may vary depending on string gauges, scale length, and your technique.

As far as 0 angle goes, it is impossible to tell without seeing the instrument. It may be. Or not. There may be some benefit to a shim. Or not. Are there specific places where strings are hitting the frets? Or is it scattered on the fingerboard? Is there a ski jump at the end of the fingerboard? The judicious use of straight edges will give you the data you crave.

[jsapri]

I have a question for 202dy - you mention about a ski jump at the end of the fingerboard. I suspect one of my basses has this problem. What is the best way to fix this problem, is heat treatment to the neck the only way to fix it? Thanks in advance.

[perucci]

*MANY* thanks for the comments from the folks above! That capo thing was getting really annoying; the straight-edge seems much more reasonable! I just ordered the book suggested above, too. There is much to be said for the "kindness of strangers"!

I realize I'm just dealing with an "off-the-rack" MIM Jazz (I knew what to expect), and I can only expect so much from "Made in Mexico" quality, but my funds are tight, and I'd really like to get everything out of this bass I can. I also have an Ibanez that needs a new bridge (cheap alloy, actually bending away from body due to string-tension!), and for that, I'll definitely go with a tech.

Of course, if I get my action *too* good, I'll loose my best excuse as to why I don't sound like Stu Hamm...

[glwanabe]

Originally Posted by perucci

*MANY* thanks from the comments from the folks above! That capo thing was getting really annoying; the straight-edge seems much more reasonable! I just ordered the book suggested above, too. There is much to be said for the "kindness of strangers"!

I realize I'm just dealing with an "off-the-rack" MIM Jazz (I knew what to expect), and I can only expect so much from "Made in Mexico" quality, but my funds are tight, and I'd really like to get everything out of this bass I can. I also have an Ibanez that needs a new bridge (cheap alloy, actually bending away from body due to string-tension!), and for that, I'll definitely go with a tech.

Of course, if I get my action *too* good, I'll loose my best excuse as to why I don't sound like Stu Hamm...

Any bass from any manufacturer could be a jewel or a piece of coal.

There are some very good basses out there that say MIM as there birth place on them. These are not just good MIM basses, but good basses period.

It seems because of whatever reason on this board, that MIM Fenders get a bad rap, from a lot of people here. Not everybody, but a lot of people. Be it a bias to not like Fender, or whatever reason. Whether it really is crap, or it just needs a good setup on it, is up in the air. Add to that they probably can't really play it in the first place, and they blame the bass for not being able to get player "X's" tone from it.

There are some dogs out there, but to write off a bass simply because of where it was made is the wrong attitude. Lakland Skylines are made in Korea, after all. Heck even the bass that starts with the letter "S" has import models. Those basses get a good setup before they go out. A good bass is a good bass, and it does not matter where it was built. Likewise a dog is a dog, no matter what it says on the headstock.

It sounds like you are on the right overall track. Take the time to really get a good setup on the bass, and then you can really decide if it is coal or diamond. I'am sure it will be a fine bass, a good setup usually corrects most of what is wrong. The rest can be fixed, for the most part. I'll leave open that it could still be a pice of coal, cause it can, and does happen.

I have a Standard jazz that is a very good bass. I have made a few changes to it, but it is basically stock. It has gone through a few mods, some were ultimately reversed back to stock parts.

Nut was replaced with a Graph Tech nut, original nut was crap when I bought it. The bass had a P bass nut on a jazz. Cost 8 bucks, and a few hours of my time. I learned a lot and got the nut action cut down to where it really should be. A properly cut nut is vital.

BAII bridge was put on, and ultimately has been taken off. I like the vintage Fender bridge with flats. I did replace the stock barrells with vintage slotted type. I've also recently, replaced the barrell screws and springs with stainless screws and longer tighter springs. The bridge has no rattles from the springs now. My local store had a spare vintage bridge laying around so I got the parts cheap. 10 bucks for a whole vintage bridge with slotted barrells. Looks like it came off an HWY1 bass.

The rest of the bridge parts have been put together to replace the BAII bridge on my Geddy jazz with a period correct vintage bridge. That bass wears flats as well. The Geddy jazz is held up on high around here as a monster bass. It is a very well made bass, but my MIM standard gets as much or more play time as the Geddy Jazz.

While the MIM pups do work, and can be made to sound pretty good with a decent setup. I'm not a huge fan of them overall. I do like the Fender vintage pickups, and some of the SD stuff as well. My bass still wears the stock pups. Even after having this bass for 5 years, I still have not seen fit to replace the pups. I want to, but I keep finding better uses for a hundred bucks.

Pairing the bass up with a string that suits it's personality has negated most of the pups issues that I don't like about them. Not all of the issues, but enough to keep me from throwing my money down. Besides, I'm not Stu Hamm or Player "X" either. The best thing I can do to make this bass sound better is learn to play better.

[Turnaround]

Originally Posted by perucci

I realize I'm just dealing with an "off-the-rack" MIM Jazz (I knew what to expect), and I can only expect so much from "Made in Mexico" quality, but my funds are tight, and I'd really like to get everything out of this bass I can.

I have a MIM Jazz as well, and though the quality of the instrument isn't as high as a Sadowsky, neither is the price. But I will say that a MIM Jazz can be made to play exceedingly well. And if you study Erlewine's book and are a careful workman, you can make yours play like "butta" as well. I did. And if the noisy single coil pickups bother you at all, check out this site:

http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/shielding/bass.php

The tutorial is about a Marcus Miller Fender, but the principles apply equally to the lowly MIM Jazz.

[perucci]

The best "action" I can get right now is 6/64 on the treble side and 8/64 on the bass-side. I need to set the relief to about 0.031" rather than the "spec" of 0.012" to get that. With less relief I get a lot of fret-buzz, even with the saddles raised appropriately. With these settings there is no "bad" fret-buzz, but F on the A string buzzes a smidge if I hit it hard and hold the note for a moment; nothing that affects the amplified sound much.

At this point I'm content that the bass is a "keeper" (I'm within the 30 days where I can return it), and I'm content with the feel until I read Erlewine's book. Per the Sadowsky site, my action qualifies as their "high" action. While I could probably find a MIM with better fretwork/action, I like the one I have; it's a "special issue" with natural finish on swamp-ash. I won't mention the neck-pocket on one side big enough to fit a dime. I figure at worst, if low action gets to really be an issue I can get some "professional work" done on the neck. For now, I'm just going to be hacking at it learning to slap anyway! My "real" bass is an Ibanez 6-string with flats.

At present, my "dream bass" is either a Warwick or Fender with 5-6 strings and 19mm string-spacing at the bridge...
...someday.

[perucci]

FYI, since I've been "beating this issue to death", it is interesting that I've arguably been doing the same to my bass (heavy playing style).

I've got a "heavy hand", but for those interested in the "how low can you go" issue, I found a great thread at the Alembic forum, talking about the relationship between "action" and playing style: http://alembic.com/club/messages/393/2237.html

[202dy]

Originally Posted by perucci

The best "action" I can get right now is 6/64 on the treble side and 8/64 on the bass-side. I need to set the relief to about 0.031" rather than the "spec" of 0.012" to get that. With less relief I get a lot of fret-buzz, even with the saddles raised appropriately. With these settings there is no "bad" fret-buzz, but F on the A string buzzes a smidge if I hit it hard and hold the note for a moment; nothing that affects the amplified sound much.

At this point I'm content that the bass is a "keeper" (I'm within the 30 days where I can return it), and I'm content with the feel until I read Erlewine's book. Per the Sadowsky site, my action qualifies as their "high" action. While I could probably find a MIM with better fretwork/action, I like the one I have; it's a "special issue" with natural finish on swamp-ash. I won't mention the neck-pocket on one side big enough to fit a dime. I figure at worst, if low action gets to really be an issue I can get some "professional work" done on the neck. For now, I'm just going to be hacking at it learning to slap anyway! My "real" bass is an Ibanez 6-string with flats.

At present, my "dream bass" is either a Warwick or Fender with 5-6 strings and 19mm string-spacing at the bridge...
...someday.

What are the string heights at F12 and the last fret? Also, with "normal" relief of .012", what are the string heights? With this data we should be able to deduce the need for a shim.

[perucci]

Originally Posted by 202dy

What are the string heights at F12 and the last fret? Also, with "normal" relief of .012", what are the string heights? With this data we should be able to deduce the need for a shim.

With my .031" relief, I've got the action to where the bass plays nice for my (apparently) "thrashing" playing style. My first choice would be to let it settle-in, and have time to read the book I ordered on your advice.

Still, your suggestion above is very interesting! It sound like you can tell the need for a shim by comparing:

1. The neck-angle with a lot of relief (.031" in my case), as measured by the string-height at F12 and the last fret and
2. The neck-angle with "spec" relief (.012" in my case), as measured by the string-height at F12 and the last fret

This is what I was looking for! I had a '73 Jazz as a teen with the "micro tilt" adjustment, and I can't help but think the tilt is important. Rather than my providing actual measurements right now, is there any "rule" for adding a shim (adjusting neck angle) when comparing the two measurements above (#1 & #2)?

Note: If this is "bass setup 101" and found in the book, I should have the book in a few days...

[perucci]

Originally Posted by Joshua

If I'm reading it correctly, we've been preaching the same info as in that link here for years.

I'll have to take the "New Guy(tm)" clause

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Joshua

If I'm reading it correctly, we've been preaching the same info as in that link here for years.

If it bleeds, we can kill it.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by perucci

With my .031" relief, I've got the action to where the bass plays nice for my (apparently) "thrashing" playing style. My first choice would be to let it settle-in, and have time to read the book I ordered on your advice.

Still, your suggestion above is very interesting! It sound like you can tell the need for a shim by comparing:

1. The neck-angle with a lot of relief (.031" in my case), as measured by the string-height at F12 and the last fret and
2. The neck-angle with "spec" relief (.012" in my case), as measured by the string-height at F12 and the last fret

This is what I was looking for! I had a '73 Jazz as a teen with the "micro tilt" adjustment, and I can't help but think the tilt is important. Rather than my providing actual measurements right now, is there any "rule" for adding a shim (adjusting neck angle) when comparing the two measurements above (#1 & #2)?

Note: If this is "bass setup 101" and found in the book, I should have the book in a few days...

No. This is a three hundred level class. And it ain't in the book.

There is no formula, per se, but knowing these things can give you a good guess as to the need for a shim and the thickness to start with. Obviously, if we take all the necessary measurements we can crank out the trig an nail it on the first try. You do have dial calipers, don't you?

Considering that the shim will probably be made out a business card, and that they vary in thickness, it is probably just as quick to install the first one and go from there.

[perucci]

Originally Posted by 202dy

No. This is a three hundred level class. And it ain't in the book.

There is no formula, per se, but knowing these things can give you a good guess as to the need for a shim and the thickness to start with. Obviously, if we take all the necessary measurements we can crank out the trig an nail it on the first try. You do have dial calipers, don't you?

Considering that the shim will probably be made out a business card, and that they vary in thickness, it is probably just as quick to install the first one and go from there.

...but I *like* easy answers! Oh well.

As for the shim, I actually did install one, just a single credit-card thickness, at the headstock side of the joint, to give me a bit more of a "positive" angle as defined below:

• Positive Angle - At 90 degrees, in playing position, the neck would point straight at the audience.
• Negative Angle - At -90 degrees, in playing position, the neck would wrap around my left side.

Obviously I didn't go for 90 degrees, but just whatever a single layer of business-card thickness paper would provide. Not really seeing any difference, I opted to wait until I get the guitar repair book and do some more reading. I get really nervous have to place the wear/tear on the neck threads.

I reasoned that since at low action (with spec relief of 0.012") I tend to get pretty widespread fret-buzz and not just what seem to be isolated "high fret" buzz, I needed to make the frets closer to the bridge lower.

Given that I apparently have a pretty aggressive plucking style, in reading posts from others re: their action & buzzing, I seem to be sufficiently "in the ballpark" for now. Another factor is the curvature of the neck, where it bows, and how evenly. With minimal relief, the bow on the treble side seems a bit more pronounced and smooth than on the bass side, but I don't exactly have an "eye" for bass-neck curvature so I don't want to suggest I'm being more objective than I really am.

Clear as mud?

[perucci]

Never being one to let "sleeping dogs lay"...
...in "researching" the shim issue on the 'net, it sounds like the only function a shim can perform is to compensate for bridge saddles that are either "too low" or "too high". After a shim changes the angle of the neck to the strings, the bridge needs to be readjusted, placing the "action" where it was to start with (assuming the bridge saddles are not "maxed out" in either direction).

Without having thought much about the geometry, based on postings I'd seen, somehow I got the impression that shimming was some sort of "magic bullet". Guess not.

At least I stumbled over a couple of good points:

• A shim in the neck pocket, over time, could warp the neck.
• Even worse, having the neck screws over-tightened, over time, could cause the "tongue" of the neck to bulge, effectively creating high frets.

In an effort to console myself re: the time wasted, I'll "run with" the 2nd bullet. The first thing I do with a new bass is tighten the screws, and I've tended to really "torque" the neck screws, out of concern over the tremendous string tension. Is there a "smilee" for Homer Simpson? Additionally, I've come to understand the need to read the guitar repair guide (or go broke via the "school of hard knocks").

Anyway, hopefully I've not left too visible a trail of blunders for future readers (or at least they read all the posts).