Fodera Extended B headstock.....

[Skywalker83]

Ok, i've just had a chat with my luthier and i thought i would get some other peoples opinions on the matter.

I'm having a 6 string, 33" scale bass made. And i requested that the luthier arranged the tunning pegs like the Fodera extended B headstock layout, as i pressumed that this would give me a tighter B string on such a short scale.

The luthier said that it was more to do with the length between the nut and saddle, as well as B string width and pitch that would determine how loose or tight it was.

i just wondered what other peoples views on it were?

I pressume that Fodera do this extended B headstock for a reason so does it sereve it purpose of making the B string tighter?

[Angus]

No, it doesn't. Your luthier is correct and should be praised for not letting you get caught up in BS science in marketing.

It really does not have any effect- anyone who says otherwise is convincing themselves. I've played enough Fodera's with it to say that it really has no discernible effect, as the physics would state.

The guys at Fodera are luthiers- good ones- but they aren't engineers.

[newbold]

Well there are 2 ways you could look at it -

1. scale length determines everything (play a steinberger and try to suggest otherwise)
2. string length has a factor (more string=more spring, and thus has a lot to do with a reversed fenderbird or jimi hendrix' legendary tone)

BS science in marketing? I hardly think so.

Something being to a longer string having some kind of effect (but not necessarily tightness, but not necessarily not tightness)? quite POSSIBLY.

just like every 'simple' question asked here at TB, this one has no easy, right/wrong answer.

Have fun, my nerdy Finnish Star Wars compatriot.

[newbold]

the extended B headstock is a huge design difference between the USA MTD's and their Kingston line.

It's not the nail in the coffin but it sure looks cooler.

Same deal with Lakland's fivers.

[Jim Nazium]

String tension is determined by the vibrating length of the string (nut to saddle), the pitch it's tuned to, and the mass per unit length of the string. That's it. Moving the tuning pegs, or putting a spacer behind the bridge, can have no effect on tension.

I don't want to get into a flame war, so those of you who are convinced you hear or feel a difference ... well, OK. I just think we will all be better, smarter consumers if we bring a bit of skepticism and science to the buying decision.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by newbold

Well there are 2 ways you could look at it -

1. scale length determines everything (play a steinberger and try to suggest otherwise)
2. string length has a factor (more string=more spring, and thus has a lot to do with a reversed fenderbird or jimi hendrix' legendary tone)

BS science in marketing? I hardly think so.

Something being to a longer string having some kind of effect (but not necessarily tightness, but not necessarily not tightness)? quite POSSIBLY.

just like every 'simple' question asked here at TB, this one has no easy, right/wrong answer.

Have fun, my nerdy Finnish Star Wars compatriot.

Steinberger's are 34" scale don't let the lack of a headstock fool you. No change in string tension despite lack of extra length of string.

The extended B headstock is hype.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

The extended B headstock is hype.

Correct. And both of my basses have it The one advantage is that you can put a Hipshot Xtender on a more useful string than your low B.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by newbold

BS science in marketing? I hardly think so.

Something being to a longer string having some kind of effect (but not necessarily tightness, but not necessarily not tightness)? quite POSSIBLY.

Sure, the damping constant could be slightly different, and the contact pressure gradient on the nut is going to be shaped differently...but that's about it.

So yeah, hype, especially given what they claim.

[PhatBasstard]

The whole problem with this is what claim a manufacturer makes.

Does it sound different? Maybe.
I guess it might make the overtones of said string vibrate slightly different because the string is not clamped. It is just physically being dampened on the bottom half at the witness points (nut and bridge saddle).

Unfortunately many manufacturers claim a tighter, higher tension string because of the extra length beyond the witness points.
Physically impossible hogwash.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Skywalker83

Ok, i've just had a chat with my luthier and i thought i would get some other peoples opinions on the matter.

I'm having a 6 string, 33" scale bass made. And i requested that the luthier arranged the tunning pegs like the Fodera extended B headstock layout, as i pressumed that this would give me a tighter B string on such a short scale.

The luthier said that it was more to do with the length between the nut and saddle, as well as B string width and pitch that would determine how loose or tight it was.

i just wondered what other peoples views on it were?

I pressume that Fodera do this extended B headstock for a reason so does it sereve it purpose of making the B string tighter?

As posted above, nope. Don't bother. The slight increase in length after the nut would have zero impact on tension.

I have played a number of Fodera's with each configuration (extended and not), and obviously didn't notice an tension difference (there, by definition can't be one), and also didn't notice any overwhelming tonal difference (small sample size though).

My guess is, if there is a difference, it is due to the 'extended B' headstock having more mass (there's more wood up there with that design).

I find the look unpleasant, and wouldn't bother. IMO.

[Wilbyman]

This is where Mike Pope shows up and says you're wrong, Ken

I'm having deja vu!!!

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Wilbyman

This is where Mike Pope shows up and says you're wrong, Ken

I'm having deja vu!!!

Hey, the way Mike Pope plays, I'll defer to anything he says at all times!

[Mark Latimour]

IMO if the luthiers with engineering backgrounds don't do it (eg Jens Ritter), I doubt it makes any noticeable difference to feel or sound. There are guys out there who really do throw all the science they can into bass making and I figure if something as simple as the extended B headstock was worth it, it would be on all of those brands.

[Kobaia]

the Sound of you B string depends on how long it is from nut to saddle, how thick your guage is, what woods you've used, the pickups you have, what amp you use, your eq settings, and where you play on the string ei. near the bridge or neck.

i have a 34" fodera with a extended low B. it sounds superb, but i also play very lightly, and play my B string more over the neck pick up, more so than my other strings.

My teacher Lincoln Goines has a 33" Fodera with an extended low B, and his sounds fantastic as well. with no eq, and completely diffrent woods.

It has a lot more to do with touch than anything else

[cosmicevan]

extended B is hogwash. I have a fodera with it and the B is no tighter than a B on any other 35" scale bass I've played...floppy. I find 36" is the only scale length that will support galloping on an open B with a clear tone and good string tension for a good feel. I also find it annoying because when I tune the bass I need to really focus on the fact that the tuning peg is not in the logical spot.

The only engineering concept that has it right with a shorter scale length and a tighter B is the fanned fret system.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by cosmicevan

extended B is hogwash. I have a fodera with it and the B is no tighter than a B on any other 35" scale bass I've played...floppy. I find 36" is the only scale length that will support galloping on an open B with a clear tone and good string tension for a good feel. I also find it annoying because when I tune the bass I need to really focus on the fact that the tuning peg is not in the logical spot.

The only engineering concept that has it right with a shorter scale length and a tighter B is the fanned fret system.

While I agree with your assessment of the extended B headstock, remember, a B string with a slightly larger diameter (i.e., going from a 120 to a 125) will have MUCH more impact than the slight percentage difference between 35" scale and 36" scale. If you are noticing that much difference between those two slightly different scale lengths, then something else is going on.

A 130 B string on my 34" Sadowsky 5 is as tight and punchy as anything I've heard or played, including a couple 36" Fodera's.

It's really all about the B string itself, and IMO the stiffness of the neck that defines both a B string sound and feel.

However, this can be argued until the cows come home. What I'm sure of though, is that there is no 'magic bullet' (i.e., all 36" scale B strings sound great, etc.).

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by cosmicevan

extended B is hogwash. I have a fodera with it and the B is no tighter than a B on any other 35" scale bass I've played...floppy. I find 36" is the only scale length that will support galloping on an open B with a clear tone and good string tension for a good feel. I also find it annoying because when I tune the bass I need to really focus on the fact that the tuning peg is not in the logical spot.

Even floppy-feeling Bs can sound great though- if you think about it, at least 90% of the low B work in existence is on a 34" scale, and almost none is done on a 36" outside of AJ's stuff.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by KJung

However, this can be argued until the cows come home. What I'm sure of though, is that there is no 'magic bullet' (i.e., all 36" scale B strings sound great, etc.).

I agree- some physics people pointed out here on TB that going up an inch in scale length adds only 3% more tension. I've been lucky enough to own 34", 35", and 36" scale versions of the same bass, and while the added length makes a bit of difference, string design is a lot more noticeable. Even within the same gauges- a .130 DR Lo Rider has a lot more tautness to it than something like a .130 EB Slinky.

[cosmicevan]

agreed...floppy doesn't necessarily = bad sound. in fact i get a really nice sound from the B on my Fodera.

agreed...string thickness plays a HUGE role in the equation. when i was speaking about 36" scale length, i was thinking the strings as a constant in the comparison.

to me, nothing effects the sound and feel of a B more than the scale length (but then again I tend to use the same strings on my basses). folks can point to the exact % in tension and measurements til the cows learn to play bass, but to me, there is no better judge in sound than my ears and no better judge in feel than my fingers. i find that 36" scale fits me best for any bass with a low B.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by cosmicevan

agreed...floppy doesn't necessarily = bad sound. in fact i get a really nice sound from the B on my Fodera.

agreed...string thickness plays a HUGE role in the equation. when i was speaking about 36" scale length, i was thinking the strings as a constant in the comparison.

to me, nothing effects the sound and feel of a B more than the scale length (but then again I tend to use the same strings on my basses). folks can point to the exact % in tension and measurements til the cows learn to play bass, but to me, there is no better judge in sound than my ears and no better judge in feel than my fingers. i find that 36" scale fits me best for any bass with a low B.

+1 in that extending the scale length will result in a small increase in tension, all other things equal. I guess my point is, one of the worst sounding Fodera B's I've ever played was on a 36" scale model. It had a swamp ash body and was very lightweight, and had no balls. Interestingly, that translated into the B string feeling more sloppy also, compared to my heavy as a boat anchor Mahogany 35" scale Fodera.

If you've played 10 or 15 36" scale instruments of different designs, then maybe you can start to parse out the impact of that exta inch. If you've only played one or even two, it's very dangerous to define scale length as a strong causal component in the B string sound and feel without taking into account a lot of other component differences.

Edit: Of course, if it works for you, it works for you. I don't mean to dog you at all. I just feel that, for many of us, there is no need to get an extended scale instrument, or the Novak sort of fan fret instrument. I've never been happier with a B string than on my current one piece maple flat sawn, bolt on neck 34" scale instruments, and it just so happens that the two of them that have the best B strings to my ear and fingers also have the stiffest, most rock hard necks that I've ever experienced.

IMO and IME!