Fret Clack relative to string tension

monsterthompson · #1 02-19-2009, 10:59 AM

I've searched around a bit and see there are quite a few sources for string clack. I've read through the common fixes, but I didn't see anything about how the problem related to higher/lower tension strings. I know that certain core and wrap factors as well as string gauge impact the playing tension on the strings and I wondered if anyone has noticed a connection between the two.

I would assume slinky/floppy strings would be more prone to clanking and that thicker, higher tension strings would be less prone to it.

I also wonder how much of an impact the string metal type has. Are stainless steel more prone than nickle wound? Are coated strings less prone to it?

As background for the question, I've recently picked up Warwick Corvette $$ and I'm trying to get it dialed in. I think I've got the tone I want, but last night in the studio, I noticed some clank while recording. I didn't notice it before in the live rehearsals, but now I can't help but hear it. I can live with some buzz, but the clank is killing me. I know that my technique is not super tight, but I would like to minimize this issue while I work on my technique (particularly since I notice it even when I'm very careful about my fretting and plucking in the hunt to hear where on the fretboard it is coming from). I can hear it when I'm unplugged, so I know it is going to be there live. I also know that the active pickups are going to show this issue more.

BigOldHarry · #2 02-19-2009, 11:07 AM

By "Clack" do you mean unwanted fret-buzz - - contact with higher frets that you don't want? You can try raising the action a bit, the main thing that I've found that causes that is technique. True, you could have really soft strings that vibrate too much, or action that is whacky... But for my money, it's mostly technique - - strength in your fretting fingers and coordination between plucking and fretting.

Of course, I'd have to play your bass to ensure *it's* not the problem... Do you have another bass the does NOT "Clack"? If so, what's the difference?

One thought about Warwicks - they usually have very thick necks - I find them hard to get my left hand all the way around, so maybe your fretting fingers are at a bad angle?

monsterthompson · #3 02-19-2009, 11:56 AM

The clack is a distinctive metalic clack, almost like the string is hitting the pickup, but it is clear of the pickup based on my observations. It is mainly on the lower frets of the thicker strings, but I have heard it elsewhere on the fretboard. Unplugged, I can hear it too. It is more than just a buzz, sometimes I get both. I have tried hunting down the biggest offending playing positions and moving my fretting hand to a few different postions, working to choke up on the fret as much as possible and tried various levels of intensity with pick/finger attack when plucking the string. I've found that pressing hard will help with the issue, but it requires and unreasonable amount of pressure, so much so that the pitch is bent sharp.

My Thunderbird buzzes too, but it doesn't show through the speakers. The recording process made it jump out to my ears. I ended up using the Thunderbird for last night's session because the buzz there didn't make it to the speakers and the recording.

The action is set a bit on the high side now. The neck was the most comfortable neck I've ever played and I don't have a problem with left hand fit. I know I need to have it set up by a pro and that I need to work on my technique to help the problem.

My point in starting a new thread was to find out if there is a connection between string characteristics and clack. I know this topic has been beaten up in the past. ...of course, if y'all want to jump in and revisit to help me with my specific setup, I'd be more than happy to let you

Lowtonep12 · #4 02-19-2009, 12:04 PM

Can't offer much technical advice but I will say that the Warwick Thumb I had had a large amount of "clack".
Of course, the bass had brass frets.- significant? don't know.
If it got to bothering me I just rolled off the highs a bit and it seemed to help.

monsterthompson · #5 02-19-2009, 12:09 PM

yeah, i got the brass frets too. i'm not super bothered by it, but my guitarist notices now. i'm bummed about it on the recording, as i'd love to get this beast on there, but perhaps it is not my time.

Turnaround · #6 02-19-2009, 03:41 PM

The typical "clack" is caused when your finger strikes the string next to the one you are plucking. That is, if you are plucking a note on the A string, your finger then strikes the E string. It drives the E string against a fret causing a "clack".

If your bass is set up properly and you still get this problem, it is a fuunction of your technique. If you are pretty confident about your technique then I would double check the setup of the instrument - relief, string height, nut height.

BTW if you are totally confident about your technique - it may be time to take a humble pill. No serious player is ever entirely happy with his technique.

Jim Carr · #7 02-19-2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turnaround

The typical "clack" is caused when your finger strikes the string next to the one you are plucking. That is, if you are plucking a note on the A string, your finger then strikes the E string. It drives the E string against a fret causing a "clack".

If your bass is set up properly and you still get this problem, it is a fuunction of your technique. If you are pretty confident about your technique then I would double check the setup of the instrument - relief, string height, nut height.

BTW if you are totally confident about your technique - it may be time to take a humble pill. No serious player is ever entirely happy with his technique.

+1

This is the "Clack" I finally tracked down after a zillion other avenues were fruitlessly run. Find the way you can always make it. Then play the same thing, "unmaking it." I fixed it that way, and so have my students.

It is technique, IMHO.

Turnaround · #8 02-19-2009, 04:22 PM

FWIW - there is a way to reduce "clack" in your playing technique. The closer your fingers are to being perpendicular to the strings, the less clack you will experience. By perpendicular, I mean at right angles to the surface of the bass.

There is a downside to this. Typically you will induce an unnatural angle at your wrist which can lead to carpal tunnel syndrome.

Who said that playing bas would be easy?

Wayne8 · #9 02-19-2009, 04:35 PM

Can't say for sure if this is what the OP is talking about but I have a 'clank' that's not the string hitting the pickup, it's not a 'buzz', it's not a high fret somewhere, it's not any of the things people usually talk about in these threads. If it's been said, I've missed it but the 'clank' I get is from the string contacting the fret I'm fretting. Does this even if I'm not using my right hand at all. I press down the string to contact the fret and, when the string contacts the fret, it 'clanks'. If it were only acoustically, it'd be fine but it comes through my amp. I've tried fretting more softly and I get some limited success but it also slows me way down. The only thing I've found that helps is to turn the tone knob on my Jazz all the way off.

monsterthompson · #10 02-19-2009, 04:43 PM

Sounds like the clack that Turnaround is mentioning isn't what I've got. I'm noticing this on the low string so, it isn't the rest stroke contact that is creating it. It sounds like Wayne8 has something closer to what I've got. I'm wondering if my action is set too high and that if the attack from plucking the string is causing the "give" in the flesh of my finger tips to allow the string to come up off the fret and then reconnect with the fret, almost like a bounce. As I stated earlier, when I push down with unreasonable force, the problem is less likely to show, though it bends the string out of pitch.

I still haven't heard anyone address the concern of string material and tension influencing the clack, though much of this seems to be based on people being confused by the "clack" I have. Perhaps the active pickup/preamp setup lets it jump out more than the passive Epi I have. Perhaps it is time for new strings and getting it up and running in with the passive switch engaged.

Wayne8 · #11 02-19-2009, 05:10 PM

Mine is usually on the E string. My action is low. I get what you're saying, would a different metal or higher tension string help? My strings are pure nickel, which should, by all accounts here, help, but they're still fairly new and I guess not 'broken in'. I almost feel like a higher tension string might help my problem in being more resistant to finger pressure and thus landing softer on the fret. I don't know. I kind of hope we're talking about the same thing so I can get an answer, too. But again, what I'm hearing is definitely the sound of the string hitting the fret I'm fretting, not other frets. And it's there before I even pluck the string.

monsterthompson · #12 02-19-2009, 05:19 PM

Wayne, I think your problem and mine are related. I sat down last night and fretted the notes all over the fretboard, across all strings and plucked them with a pick and fingerstyle to see what might be causeing the clack. I was able to replicate it when the strings were fretted very carefuly and plucked gently. I could hear it when I wasn't plugged in too. I'm assuming the path of the string vibration is such that it is hitting the frets, or the vibration of the string is enough to flex my finger tips and allow the string to bounce up enough to clack back down on the fret.

Wayne, are you running active pickups? Rounds or flats?

Wayne8 · #13 02-19-2009, 05:53 PM

Passive pickups and pure nickle rounds.

monsterthompson · #14 02-19-2009, 05:54 PM

Dang. That does little to help my thought that running the $$ in passive mode might rid me of the problem.

Wayne8 · #15 02-19-2009, 07:56 PM

They are humbuckers, Model J's, if that helps, though I think I remember I had this problem before I put them in.

The modifier · #16 02-19-2009, 09:11 PM

Whats wrong with some click clack,gotta love that Korn........................

Joe Kyle · #17 02-19-2009, 09:18 PM

I have that problem when i dig in a bit. it seems to be more of a downward motion of the strings on your plucking hand towards the fretboard, instead of across the strings parallel to the fretboard.

Ive been trying to fix it so that it doesnt happen ever, and i always seem to find a way to get over-excited/ really start digging in, and it all goes to hell.

The modifier · #18 02-19-2009, 09:24 PM

In all seriousness though I had this problem especially with the tone pots all maxed out,I found that a lighter touch and different angle of attack ended it for the most part, but I now find myself using the clack, it adds a percussive sound that can sound good to the right style of music.

monsterthompson · #19 02-20-2009, 09:24 AM

Well, I added a bit of relief to the neck (loosened the truss rod) and let it sit for a night. I ended up picking up a set of Lo-Riders in the same gauge as my warwick strings, and I went stainless instead of nickel since they didn't have any nickel ones at the local GC. Once the strings were on, I tweaked the intonation and the action, setting it at about 2.5mm above the 24th fret. Lo and behold the buzz was reduced and the clack was too. I still get it, but only on the E string on the 5th fret and lower. I am working hard on not digging in and it seems to be helping. I still hear it a bit, but not as bad as it was. The trouble is, there are some songs we do that focus on a hard driving bassline around the 2nd fret and it is hard not to get caught up in the desire to wail.

I did adjust my EQ and rolled all the highs off. It helps. It wasn't as much of an option with the strings I had before. They were so dead and lifeless that they needed every bit they could get. Now the strings have enough sparkle to roll back the treble.

I think I'm also going to force the band to take a step towards accepting the clack. I will embrace it

... but only a little.

edit - oh yeah, and to the point of my original question, it would appear that clack was reduced even though I switched from one stainless string to another. i may give the nickle lo-riders a shot in a few months to compare and contrast. perhaps the nickle will ease things even more.

monsterthompson · #20 02-20-2009, 11:15 AM

i almost forgot about my alternate solution to covering up string clack and sloppy technique

move the mid-shift selctor to the right and crank the gain (but not the the red switch) and boost the mid and trebble and the speakers sound like they are ripping. fret clack won't stand a chance of showing up.