fretless action, how low/high

[dlmarquez]

I am starting to wonder about the height of my strings. I had a very well known local shop replace and set up the nut on my fretless, and it is very low and has tremendous mwah, but I think I'd prefer it a bit higher. Any of you fretless players out there prefer a higher action, and if so, why?
I think I would prefer having to work a bit for the mwah when I want it, but be able to get different tones and sounds out of my fretless. I particularly really like the sound when I fingerpick right in front of the bridge..very percussive and lots of attack. Totally different than the "classic" fretless sound. Due to the sharper and more percussive note envelope, it also seems to show intonation problems and makes me pay more attention to left hand finger placement.

[Turnaround]

"Mwah" has nothing to do with nut height. There are a number of factors that go into producing that mwah sound, but nut height is not one of them.

Since you are specific about the amount of mwah you want and the conditions you want to be able to control to produce it (or not produce it), you should express these conditions to the person who does your setups. If they are good they should be able to dial in what you want.

Or learn to do it yourself. But beware that there is far more mis-information out there than true knowledge. If you want to do it well there may be a protracted learning cycle.

[Fire-Starter]

I seem to remember when I had my fretless that I was able to get more or less Mwah depending on how close or how far away from the neck pickup I played. Seems like I got more when I was playing more toward the neck AWAY from the neck pup.

Just my 2 1/2 cents.

[lowtide]

I've played fretless forever and setup fretlesses for others depending upon what they're loking to have. Some want the mwah factor and, contrary to what's said about the nut NOT having anything to do with it, that is only partially true.

To me the mwah factor is a combination of nut slot/string bottom height off the board and string height (acton) and neck relief. Mwah happens when strings actually lay almost flat all (or most) of the way down the length of the fboard and vibrate against the wood.

Some like it and some don't. Those that do I set the nut slot depth a sliver (thousandth) off the board with the action as low as it can go. Those that don't I raise the slot depth from one to about three thousandths and the action higher.

It's worked for me for over 30 years.

[Brad Johnson]

I don't like high action. My fretlesses are mostly two pickup basses and I can get different mwah depending on where and how I pluck.

I disagree that the nut height has no effect on it.

[Turnaround]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

I don't like high action. My fretlesses are mostly two pickup basses and I can get different mwah depending on where and how I pluck.

I disagree that the nut height has no effect on it.

Please tell us how nut height can affect the amount of mwah.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Turnaround

Please tell us how nut height can affect the amount of mwah.

Sure. Try cutting a nut a bit too high (higher than for a like a fretted bass). Now cut it at a lower height for fretless. You may not have experienced a difference in playabilty, I have. Playability has an effect on mwah. You may not have experienced that either.

[deckard]

I can see how nut height affects mwah on open strings: that is very clear to me.

But as soon as you "fret" a string on a fretless, isn't the nut taken completely out of the equation: i.e., essentially your fingertip becomes the "nut"?

If you don't mind my asking...

Thanks!

[bassteban]

IME, the lower the action(nut height being a large part of this), the easier to obtain the *mwah*, generally. Technique is of course, also a large factor. I can see the physics in my mind's eye but can't explain it very well, so I'll stick w/my own personal experience.

[mordechai]

Originally Posted by lowtide

I've played fretless forever and setup fretlesses for others depending upon what they're loking to have. Some want the mwah factor and, contrary to what's said about the nut NOT having anything to do with it, that is only partially true.

To me the mwah factor is a combination of nut slot/string bottom height off the board and string height (acton) and neck relief. Mwah happens when strings actually lay almost flat all (or most) of the way down the length of the fboard and vibrate against the wood.

Some like it and some don't. Those that do I set the nut slot depth a sliver (thousandth) off the board with the action as low as it can go. Those that don't I raise the slot depth from one to about three thousandths and the action higher.

It's worked for me for over 30 years.

So true. "Mwah" is the same undesirable sound you get if you cut a nut slot poorly, and leave the bottom of the slot flat as opposed to slanted going towards the headstock. Same thing can happen at the saddle on acoustic instruments. Interestingly, that's how sitars are setup to get their sound. "Mwah" is the sound of a string vibrating against a flat surface, so nut height, neck relief, and saddle height is everything.

[Rickett Customs]

Originally Posted by mordechai

So true. "Mwah" is the same undesirable sound you get if you cut a nut slot poorly

No. Not at all. That's just a poorly slotted nut, much difference there.

Originally Posted by mordechai

Interestingly, that's how sitars are setup to get their sound. "Mwah" is the sound of a string vibrating against a flat surface

Again No, that is a buzz, there's a difference, there's also 2 bridges on a sitar, one of which produces this, not the nut.
The string vibrates on a flat bridge with a gently curved surface, depending on how steep the curves in the back and front of that contact area are all affect how much buzz is emitted and how clear the sound is. I'm not a Sitar expert, but I am aware of the mechanics.

Example, on Tom Clement's site is a good example of Mwah.

Listen to "Clement sc Ryan bass #104"

http://www.clementbass.com/web/Galle...6/Default.aspx

Not as severe as a Sitar, which is no question a buzz.

[Turnaround]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Sure. Try cutting a nut a bit too high (higher than for a like a fretted bass). Now cut it at a lower height for fretless. You may not have experienced a difference in playabilty, I have. Playability has an effect on mwah. You may not have experienced that either.

A higher nut only means that you will have to press the string harder in the first position in order to contact the fingerboard. Regardless of whether the nut is high or low, once you stop a string the geometry of the string-to-bridge angle will be no different, and that's the only part of the string that is speaking. It's the speaking string that produces mwah - ergo, the nut is not part of the equation.

I have plenty of experience with playability and mwah - been playing fretless for over 40 years.

[pbd]

somebody please help me out, I am not a fretless player and have no idea what mwah is?

please enlighten me without flames

Todd

[tjclem]

Originally Posted by pbd

somebody please help me out, I am not a fretless player and have no idea what mwah is?

please enlighten me without flames

Todd

Click on the link above to the sound clip it is a great example of Mwaah I wish I had played it

[Rickett Customs]

Originally Posted by tjclem

Click on the link above to the sound clip it is a great example of Mwaah I wish I had played it

It wasn't the player, more than the man who crafted it, Tom

[tjclem]

Originally Posted by Alembicplyr

It wasn't the player, more than the man who crafted it, Tom

You know it is embarassing to admit I can't play them and make them sound as good as other people can...t

[pbd]

Originally Posted by tjclem

Click on the link above to the sound clip it is a great example of Mwaah I wish I had played it

very cool, reminds me of some Zappa stuff I've heard, great sound and awesome playing

Todd

[walterw]

yeah, there's no good reason to have the nut slots more than a few thousandths above the fretboard (i usually file them down to where a .010" feeler gauge on the fingerboard hits the file). i'm not really a fretless guy, but it's pretty obvious that any higher just makes the low positions sharp, as well as harder to play.

differences in string height for tonal considerations should be addressed at the other end, i.e., strings close with a straight neck for the "mwah" sound, strings farther up with more relief for harder hitting or a more "upright" sort of vibe.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Turnaround

A higher nut only means that you will have to press the string harder in the first position in order to contact the fingerboard. Regardless of whether the nut is high or low, once you stop a string the geometry of the string-to-bridge angle will be no different, and that's the only part of the string that is speaking. It's the speaking string that produces mwah - ergo, the nut is not part of the equation.

I have plenty of experience with playability and mwah - been playing fretless for over 40 years.

It appears that you think that you'll only need a difference in pressure at the first position. That also goes against my experience with fretless because if the nut is high enough it can change how hard you have to press the string even past the first position... unless you think the string angle from the nut to the note is only affected at first position by nut height.

How hard you press the string can have an effect on mwah IME. Think about it, if it really was limited to the angle from the bridge to the note, wouldn't everyone get the same mwah?

In any event, believe what you want... and I've only been playing fretless for 30 years.

[fryBASS]

Roundwound strings make the difference IMO, apposed to flats, though you can get some mwah with flats, it's easier with roundwounds, again, imo.