fretless funambulist: adjusting string tension

[cloren]

I really like the sound of a fretless when the strings aren't as taught. For example, I've gotten some pretty great low tones when tuning my fretless MM Sterling (w/ piccolo strings) C G D A. I just wish they can retain that timbre with standard medium gauge bass strings tuned EADG! Any suggestions on loosening up string tension? Can this be done by a) different machines b) truss rod adjustment C)bridge adjustment?

[PSPookie]

Sorry. According to the laws of physics, the fundamental frequency of the open string will be determined by a) the mass of the string b) the vibrating length of the string and c) the tension of the string.

So, if you want to retain standard tuning but have really low tension, you have to either use strings of a lower mass (i.e. lighter gauge) or shorten the vibrating length (such as on a short scale bass).

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by cloren

I really like the sound of a fretless when the strings aren't as taught. For example, I've gotten some pretty great low tones when tuning my fretless MM Sterling (w/ piccolo strings) C G D A. I just wish they can retain that timbre with standard medium gauge bass strings tuned EADG! Any suggestions on loosening up string tension? Can this be done by a) different machines b) truss rod adjustment C)bridge adjustment?

no, possibly, possibly


+ on lighter gauge strings


lowering the action may get you some of the buzz and mwah but ymmv

[Buskman]

Lighter tension = lighter strings

[fretlessrock]

You have to switch to lighter strngs to get less tension at the same pitch.

Go to extra light gauges, or find a piccolo set. I've built sets by buying singles from Zon Guitars, and also by buying single C strings to add to their extra light nickel sets for my EADGC set. Also, TI Jazz Rounds are very low tension and are not too hard to find. They have a very unique tone and can sound very dark after they break in, but they feel amazing.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by fretlessrock

You have to switch to lighter strngs to get less tension at the same pitch.

Can't you change the scale length by moving the bridge (if it's a fretless)?

Didn't Jaco do this?

[fretlessrock]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

Can't you change the scale length by moving the bridge (if it's a fretless)?

Didn't Jaco do this?

Basically, no. Firstly, if you change the scale to a longer one the tension goes up. Second, Jaco played defretted basses and the lines were "in tune", meaning that his bass was intonated to the 34" scale length. So he didn't change the scale length.

Assuming that you don't care if your markers are useful, you could get maybe an inch or so less scale length before you hit the bridge pickup, and that isn't going to make much of a tension difference. The OP was detuning by two full steps and liked the tension. Getting that tension at standard tuning means either using smaller strings, or a radically short scale. Since we were talking strings and not rebuilding a bass, or playing a 30" with light gauge sets, then I stand by my recommendation for a custom set. Something like 80, 60, 45, 30 would be easy to put together and be very slinky. The Zon nickel lights that I use run 95/75/55/35 (I use a 028 high C to fill out the 5 string set) and feel pretty "normal", so I'd take it one step lighter if I wanted it really slack.

Their online store is http://zonguitars.stores.yahoo.net/

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by fretlessrock

Basically, no. Firstly, if you change the scale to a longer one the tension goes up. Second, Jaco played defretted basses and the lines were "in tune", meaning that his bass was intonated to the 34" scale length. So he didn't change the scale length.

Assuming that you don't care if your markers are useful, you could get maybe an inch or so less scale length before you hit the bridge pickup, and that isn't going to make much of a tension difference. The OP was detuning by two full steps and liked the tension. Getting that tension at standard tuning means either using smaller strings, or a radically short scale. Since we were talking strings and not rebuilding a bass, or playing a 30" with light gauge sets, then I stand by my recommendation for a custom set. Something like 80, 60, 45, 30 would be easy to put together and be very slinky. The Zon nickel lights that I use run 95/75/55/35 (I use a 028 high C to fill out the 5 string set) and feel pretty "normal", so I'd take it one step lighter if I wanted it really slack.

Their online store is http://zonguitars.stores.yahoo.net/

I mean lighter strings is the obvious choice

but in theory

Couldn't you move the bridge closer to the neck on a fretless? Since you intonate each note with your fret hand anyway.

You could do this on a bass without markers/lines, or you could ignore the lines, or colour over them or something (just throwing out ideas)


I know it's impractical and would cause aesthetic damage to your bass but I don't see why it couldn't be done.

[fretlessrock]

I know that I am making a mistake by replying to this again, but hey...

I didn't say that it *couldn't* be done. I did say that it wouldn't reduce tension enough and the problems would outweigh any benefits. When the OP was tuning the E down to C, he is 1/2 step short of tuning to B on a E string. So moving one normal gauge step down on all 4 strings is going to give the tension that he likes. That is easy to do, and if he finds a cheap 6 string set he can try it with no modifications for not much $$. I mention that because it is pretty much the only way to find a set that light over-the-counter. That is how I bought my first few EADGC sets.

So you could infer that I'm saying it *shouldn't* be done. But hey, feel free to mutilate a bass and rebuild your muscle memory just to try and reduce string tension!

(not being mean here, just trying to make a point)

[cloren]

thanks for all the info guys! I did once toy with the thought of changing the scale from 34 to 32 but with my fretless being lined it would be too much trouble.

I actually bought tenor strings (A D G C) for my fretted bass, but I'm currently defretting that one so this leaves me sans-bass. -le sigh-

As soon as I am able, Ill try detuning the tenor set down to standard tuning on my fretless sterling! I may also file down the nut a bit to attain lower action.

FYI: a website called "just strings" (I think) sells individual strings for super cheap- I would suggest checking them out in case anyone is interested in creating their own "custom" set.- cause honestly, who's wallet isn't crippled by expensive sets of strings?

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by cloren

t
As soon as I am able, Ill try detuning the tenor set down to standard tuning on my fretless sterling! I may also file down the nut a bit to attain lower action.

Why not just tighten the truss rod and lower the saddles.. filing the nut is not necessary if it's already cut properly

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by fretlessrock

So you could infer that I'm saying it *shouldn't* be done. But hey, feel free to mutilate a bass and rebuild your muscle memory just to try and reduce string tension!

(not being mean here, just trying to make a point)

I'm not saying it should be done, that I recommend it, or that I would even try it. I'm just asking if it would theoretically be possible.

Look closer at what I posted:

I mean lighter strings is the obvious choice

but in theory

Couldn't you move the bridge closer to the neck on a fretless? Since you intonate each note with your fret hand anyway.

You could do this on a bass without markers/lines, or you could ignore the lines, or colour over them or something (just throwing out ideas)


I know it's impractical and would cause aesthetic damage to your bass but I don't see why it couldn't be done.

I thought I made it pretty clear that it's a bad idea and shouldn't be done, and that I and most other people wouldn't do this. It's just a hypothetical question.


Also TS, a tenor set tuned down to standard will be ridiculously light. I've never heard of anyone playing strings that light in standard (except for Michael Manring who I believe plays piccolo strings in standard sometimes) so it should be more than loose enough.

[fretlessrock]

Again, not an argument, but a discussion:

I ran a popular string tension calculator to try and make my point with more clarity. I set up Arto's String Tension Calculator:

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mu.../wwwscalc.html

I calculated tension for a string tuned to E (41.2 Hz), with a diameter of 2.5mm (about 0.100"), and a density of 860Kg/m3, and a 34" scale length (863.6mm). These are in the range of reality for a 34" scale bass with a typical steel string. The density number might be a little high but it the relative numbers don't suffer from it.

34" tension = 21.8 Kg

Next I shortened the scale by 2 inches at time, and these are also typical scale lengths of production basses:

32" tension = 19.3 Kg (12% tension drop from 34")
30" tension = 17 Kg (22% tension drop from 34")

Next, I kept the 34" scale setup and changed the pitch to the OP's low-C @ 32.7 Hz:

Low C tension = 13.7 Kg (37% tension drop from E)

This is the kind of tension reduction that the OP said he liked. Can a common string gauge give this nice slinky tension? I bet it can!

Dropping the original 2.5mm string to a 2mm string (about 0.08") gives a tension of 13.9Kg. This is almost exactly what the OP likes, the strings are widely available, and in my second post I said as much: "Something like 80, 60, 45, 30 would be easy to put together and be very slinky."

That is a long way of making my original point that scale length changes are not able to make the kind of tension changes that the OP was experiencing. Gauge changes are easy, non destructive, and they can put you at your target tension in a predictable way. I occasionally deal with these numbers when making my own custom sets, or working one up for a friend, so I have a feel for the way tension and diameter work. The calculator is a nice way to validate an instinctual statement like the one I made earlier this week.

Pete

[EADG mx]

I get your point, I know moving the bridge would change the tension. I was really more concerned with how it would affect intonation/finger position as I'm not a fretless player. Sorry for not making that more clear

The calculations are appreciated though, they really helped for putting things into perspective.