Fretted vs. Fretless "string action" question

[Popbumper]

Curious - When playing a fretted bass, classic instruction "dictates" and practice reveals that pressing the string close to the fret achieves best results.

It seems to me however that the action of pressing the string against a fret wire seems to be a very (for lack of better term) ineffective method, given that the surface area contact between string and fret wire would be small, not to mention the fact that the fret wire sits ABOVE the fingerboard.

With a fretless instrument, is this action IMPROVED as a result of the fingerboard being a "singular surface"? Is this part of the fretless appeal? I have never played a fretless bass, so I would not know.

Thanks.

Chris

[dmusic148]

The area is indeed small; this contributes to being able to play in tune easily as there is no 'wiggle room' for errors. But actually, fretted instruments do NOT play 'in tune' everywhere on the neck, but that's a whole other can of worms.
The appeal of fretless is simply that is is a completely different sound, and technique is different in playing it. And if you are really, really good, you can, in theory, play it more 'in tune' than a fretted bass. In theory.

[dmusic148]

Look here to see what it takes to make fretted instruments play perfectly in tune, you are in for a surprise( I am NOT affiliated with this company):
True Temperament - Fretting systems

[Popbumper]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

Look here to see what it takes to make fretted instruments play perfectly in tune, you are in for a surprise( I am NOT affiliated with this company):
True Temperament - Fretting systems

Oh wow, I'll listen to the clips later (at work), very, very interesting premise on fretwires JUST from the visuals......

Chris

[MarkA]

I'm not positive I fully understand everything you're saying. "Effective" in what regard? A well set-up fretted instrument will stop the string cleanly and easily. But I'll answer to the best of my ability.

When playing a fretted instrument you are indeed playing above the fingerboard/fretboard - the string won't touch the wood unless you're pressing pretty hard or the frets are very low. As far as the vibrating string is concerned, the fretboard is there primarily to hold the frets in place and the result would be similar if you were somehow able to suspend the frets in mid-air. I think that most people's fingers brush the fretboard itself to varying degrees while playing, which can be a tactile aid to navigating the neck accurately, but there are designs (such as the scalloped fretboards that seemed to gain some popularity on guitars in the '90s) that minimize even this contact.

As for fretless... it just feels different. It's a different tactile/aesthetic experience. The most obvious differences are in the quality of attack and the ability to slide between notes. And, yes, it is possible to play more in-tune* (and out-of-tune) on a fretless. I don't think that most people who consider playing fretless do so because of perceived technical advantages over a fretted bass, but because they're attracted to the sound and maybe the feel and the idea of developing the technique involved and being responsible for their own intonation.

I've been playing fretless bass for a few months now (though I have a previous background in cello and doublebass). Only recently have I started to feel confident taking it out in public. At first I felt mostly limitations but now I find I prefer it about half the time and that it affords me more freedom in some kinds of music. Tonight I'll play at a jam and take only my fretless bass.

I do find that physically complex chords -- especially in a series -- are much more difficult on fretless. Frets offer you a lot of leeway when you're piling fingers on top of each other.

-Mark

P.S. You say you've never played a fretless before. I, too, for a long time, limited my fretless inquiries to the theoretical. The best way to satisfy your curiosity is empirically -- go find one and play it!

*Try this on a fretless: tune your instrument well. Play your G-string. Now play C on the A-string, a 5th below. Tune that to perfectly match the G. Let that be the root of a C-Major chord. Maintain the position of that C carefully, and play E on the D-string, a 3rd above. Tune it to the C. Now hold that E and play it with the open A-string (E is the 5th now, not the 3rd). Is it in tune as is, or do you have to adjust it?

Originally Posted by Popbumper

Curious - When playing a fretted bass, classic instruction "dictates" and practice reveals that pressing the string close to the fret achieves best results.

It seems to me however that the action of pressing the string against a fret wire seems to be a very (for lack of better term) ineffective method, given that the surface area contact between string and fret wire would be small, not to mention the fact that the fret wire sits ABOVE the fingerboard.

With a fretless instrument, is this action IMPROVED as a result of the fingerboard being a "singular surface"? Is this part of the fretless appeal? I have never played a fretless bass, so I would not know.

Thanks.

Chris

EDIT: While typing my long-winded reply, the True Temperament links above were posted, which puts your inquiry into context.

[enricogaletta]

I agree with the previous comment, the best way to find the solution on your questions is just find a fretless and experiment the approach on it, you'll see that is easier to understand the fretless approach and technique than just try to describe in words of a post besides you'll see how change the way to reach the right intonation of a not in the first octave than the second, more the virtual fret become smaller more you need to don't play so close to the imaginary fret line. Try it!
Cheers. Enrico
YouTube
WebSite

[Popbumper]

[quote=MarkA;11085724]I'm not positive I fully understand everything you're saying. "Effective" in what regard? A well set-up fretted instrument will stop the string cleanly and easily. But I'll answer to the best of my ability.


As for fretless... it just feels different. It's a different tactile/aesthetic experience. The most obvious differences are in the quality of attack and the ability to slide between notes. [/i]

That's why I added "for lack of better term" when I said "effectiveness". My biggest complaint about fret wires is that I seem to get string buzz too often. Whether this is a matter of setup, or my own lack of skill/training, I am uncertain.

Hence the inquiry - I would THINK that a fretless would provide an opportunity for better intonation GIVEN proper finger position. Like you said, quality of attack and slide would be most obvious - and rewarding.

Chris

[MarkA]

Originally Posted by Popbumper

I would THINK that a fretless would provide an opportunity for better intonation GIVEN proper finger position. Like you said, quality of attack and slide would be most obvious - and rewarding.

One thing I can say about intonation on a fretless instrument -- okay, two, and this is more apparent to me with bowed strings, but applies to fretless bass:

1) It requires eternal vigilance. It can keep getting better and better, but it's never perfect (then, neither is the intonation on any fretted instrument).

2) You have to listen harmonically.

Maybe this is already obvious to you.

For the record, when I read "string action" in the title of your post I thought first of "low vs. high" (as in the setup of the bass) and second of some facets of left hand technique not having to do directly with intonation.

And that's another thing about fretless: more opportunities to employ subtleties of left hand touch for different effects.

[Turnaround]

Originally Posted by Popbumper

My biggest complaint about fret wires is that I seem to get string buzz too often. Whether this is a matter of setup, or my own lack of skill/training, I am uncertain.
Chris

You may just be trading fret buzz for fingerboard buzz when moving to a fretless. In either case, fretted or fretless, a proper setup is crucial. In the case of a fretted instrument you either get fret buzz or you don't. But on a fretless it's a matter of degree - too much string clearance and you lose the "mwah" a lot of folks want from their instrument. Too little and the mwah turns into a nasty choked buzz. In either case there is no substitue for a well-executed setup.

[Popbumper]

Originally Posted by MarkA

For the record, when I read "string action" in the title of your post I thought first of "low vs. high" (as in the setup of the bass) and second of some facets of left hand technique not having to do directly with intonation.

And that's another thing about fretless: more opportunities to employ subtleties of left hand touch for different effects.

Sorry for the confusion. I did add "" around the words (string action) to indicate I had no better way to describe what I was trying to ask. This is still very much a learning process, a new language - and sometimes there is no good way to communicate something well. Regardless of what you read as an inference, I appreciate the comments.

Chris

[Popbumper]

Originally Posted by Turnaround

You may just be trading fret buzz for fingerboard buzz when moving to a fretless. In either case, fretted or fretless, a proper setup is crucial. In the case of a fretted instrument you either get fret buzz or you don't. But on a fretless it's a matter of degree - too much string clearance and you lose the "mwah" a lot of folks want from their instrument. Too little and the mwah turns into a nasty choked buzz. In either case there is no substitue for a well-executed setup.

Yes, and even after a setup from the tech at GC, I am not entirely happy with the performance of the bass in question. It's hard to know, early on, whether a problem is equipment related, techinique related, or a combination of both. FWIW, the action on the bass was high BEFORE it went in the shop, and while improved afterwards, still is too high for my liking.

Chris

[Turnaround]

You should be able to achieve seriously low action if the fingerboard is true. Mine is wicked low. Maybe you need to find a tech that can true the board and set it up better. A trip to a bass specialist may be in order - I do believe there is at least one in Austin

[Popbumper]

Originally Posted by Turnaround

You should be able to achieve seriously low action if the fingerboard is true. Mine is wicked low. Maybe you need to find a tech that can true the board and set it up better. A trip to a bass specialist may be in order - I do believe there is at least one in Austin

Sounds good - and having bought my G&L (NOT the bass I am having problems with) from Bass Emporium, I'm sure those folks would be happy to set up my Fender properly. If I had good, low action on it, it would be a world of difference. My G&L is excellent in this respect, but GAS absolutely demands that I keep my Fender and enjoy it as well.

Chris