G&L intonation

D28 35Special · #1 05-06-2009, 02:31 PM

I have had my G&L L2000 for about a year. I got it from a very reputable shop here in Atlanta.

Tonally I really love this instrument, but tuing and keeping this be-atch in tune is making me nuts.

I took it back to the shop where I got it and they set it up, again. In the store it seemed fine. but a week later, I couldn't get it in tune using all of the various tuing tricks I've learnded over the years.

Same problem: When the open string harmonics are in tune, the fretted notes are not. I have seen them adjust the intonation with a very expensive strobe tuner until it's dead-nuts, but then the litmus test of playing a tune and voila, the octaves aren't perfect and the 5th and 4th fretted notes don't match.

I am a novice bass player, only a year or so, but have been playing guitar for 40 years. So I admit that there may be a lot of inexperience at play here. I didn't expect a bass to be as easy to tune as a guitar is, but I also didn't expect it to be unachievable.

What are the chances the G&L has a bad neck? Or the frets are incorrectly installed? I am definitely grasping at straws here looking for an explanation, but I'm not willing to give up on the instrument yet.

Thanks in advance for the responses.

Fred
Atlanta

bkbirge · #2 05-06-2009, 02:36 PM

Bridge saddles need adjustment. Or whoever you took it to for setup doesn't know what they're doing. Or the neck may indeed be f'ed up. I've had G&L's and never experienced those issues. Try a different setup person, one that can repair it if needed like a real luthier, not some guitar center clerk.

dmusic148 · #3 05-06-2009, 02:40 PM

It really shouldn't be difficult at all-something is wrong. I would suggest trying a new set of strings if you haven't already. They can wear out in a way that causes this sort of thing.
Install a new set, then check intonation, open string vs. 12th fret octave. Adjust bridge saddles until both are in tune.

Kirkowitz · #4 05-06-2009, 02:46 PM

Sorry to hear about the trouble with the G&L. That sounds like a very odd problem. Have you changed strings since the shop set up the bass? Is the action high on the bass?
I have 2 older G&L's and often joke that I don't need to tune them on the gig, I tuned them at the house. They do stay in tune quite well. If this was a new G&L, it should still be under warranty. Maybe the shop in Atlanta can help you out.

Kirkowitz · #5 05-06-2009, 02:48 PM

Hey--- if you adjust the intonation on the G&L, be aware that the bridge saddles lock in place with a allen head set screw from the bottom of the bridge. Make sure you loosen this before trying to move the bridge saddles.

lug · #6 05-07-2009, 10:03 AM

The fretted 12 fret needs to match the harmonic over the 12th fret. If the fretted is sharper than the harmonic move the saddle back, if the fretted is flatter than the harmonic, move the saddle toward the neck.

unclejane · #7 05-07-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D28 35Special

I have had my G&L L2000 for about a year. I got it from a very reputable shop here in Atlanta.

Tonally I really love this instrument, but tuing and keeping this be-atch in tune is making me nuts.

I took it back to the shop where I got it and they set it up, again. In the store it seemed fine. but a week later, I couldn't get it in tune using all of the various tuing tricks I've learnded over the years.

Same problem: When the open string harmonics are in tune, the fretted notes are not. I have seen them adjust the intonation with a very expensive strobe tuner until it's dead-nuts, but then the litmus test of playing a tune and voila, the octaves aren't perfect and the 5th and 4th fretted notes don't match.

I am a novice bass player, only a year or so, but have been playing guitar for 40 years. So I admit that there may be a lot of inexperience at play here. I didn't expect a bass to be as easy to tune as a guitar is, but I also didn't expect it to be unachievable.

What are the chances the G&L has a bad neck? Or the frets are incorrectly installed? I am definitely grasping at straws here looking for an explanation, but I'm not willing to give up on the instrument yet.

Thanks in advance for the responses.

Fred
Atlanta

Yeah this is part of why I switched to fretless, got tired of fighting with stuff like this. I had some kind of sharp or flat area on most of my fretted basses, I think my old 4003S was the only one I ever owned that was correctly intonated everywhere.

Best you can do is try to split the difference between the flat and sharp areas. I.e. get it spot on at the 12th fret and then see where it goes sharp and/or flat. Correct that a bit with the saddle and try it everywhere again, so the sharp parts aren't so sharp and the flat parts aren't so flat.

If all else fails, get rid of it and go fretless. Worked for me and never going back

LS

elBandito · #8 05-07-2009, 11:40 AM

It's not that simple. Alot of times, even if you get the 12th to match, other frets will be all over the place, depending on the action, relief, fret heights, etc... You have to intonate to where you play most on the neck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lug

The fretted 12 fret needs to match the harmonic over the 12th fret. If the fretted is sharper than the harmonic move the saddle back, if the fretted is flatter than the harmonic, move the saddle toward the neck.

lug · #9 05-07-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elBandito

It's not that simple. Alot of times, even if you get the 12th to match, other frets will be all over the place, depending on the action, relief, fret heights, etc... You have to intonate to where you play most on the neck.

The original poster has given no indication this has been done. This is basic step 1. He states "the octaves aren't perfect and the 5th and 4th fretted notes don't match." In other words, it hasn't been set up correctly at any location.

GLLabelle · #10 05-07-2009, 12:38 PM

I always joke that no bass I've ever owned stays in tune like my L2000 and I must admit I'm a little rough on it while playing. That being said, this is my second L2000 because the first one had a warp in the neck and it was impossible to tune...the whole bass was replaced under warranty. GL is really good for that!

bthiemann80 · #11 05-07-2009, 12:43 PM

Every G&L i've ever owned has been able to take a good setupb extremely well. They're some of the best instruments i've seen as far as keeping in tune and staying intonated. that sucks that your is not following suit, definitely take it to a qualified technician and get a full setup including having them change out the strings or, even better, learn to do it for yourself. There's lots of resources on the web to help you out, if you're not used to it, may take a bit to get the hang of the adjustments but you'll be better off in the long run.

spideyjg · #12 05-07-2009, 01:32 PM

A: The "tech" probably doesn't know about the saddle lock and is goofing it up.

B: I have a strobe tuner and set my intonation at the 12th fret harmonic vs fretted then fine tune it by playing then stopping on a note with my typical grip at various frets and fine tune the intonation to take into account my grip.

You may grab it different than the tech and notes would vary.

Jim

elBandito · #13 05-07-2009, 09:04 PM

Sure, but matching the 12th does not guarantee even intonation across the board. Many people are mislead to believe that if you match the 12th, everything is set for good. Not many mention this. So why bother going through this step, when you can just skip to the next. Set the intonation by where you play the most. Because most fretted basses will never be perfect across the board.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lug

The original poster has given no indication this has been done. This is basic step 1. He states "the octaves aren't perfect and the 5th and 4th fretted notes don't match." In other words, it hasn't been set up correctly at any location.

lug · #14 05-08-2009, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elBandito

Sure, but matching the 12th does not guarantee even intonation across the board. Many people are mislead to believe that if you match the 12th, everything is set for good. Not many mention this. So why bother going through this step, when you can just skip to the next. Set the intonation by where you play the most. Because most fretted basses will never be perfect across the board.

As a tech, you start with the 12th as a baseline because you don't know all the variables each bass may have. Sounds like his guy didn't even do that. Matching the 12th usually gives the best overall result. None of mine are off enough to worry about after the 12th. The thing that will effect it most (besides a bad fret positioning job, very unlikely) is excessive string height.

Chebass88 · #15 05-08-2009, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lug

...The thing that will effect it most (besides a bad fret positioning job, very unlikely) is excessive string height.

Plus, with excessive string height, the probability of bending the string while fretting the note is increased, complicating the tuning issue.

PSPookie · #16 05-08-2009, 08:12 AM

How high are the pups? The magnets inthe MFDs are pretty strong, so if the pickups are too close to the strings you can have problems like you described. I believe guitar players refer to this as "stratitis."

spigmu · #17 05-08-2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkbirge

Bridge saddles need adjustment. Or whoever you took it to for setup doesn't know what they're doing. Or the neck may indeed be f'ed up. I've had G&L's and never experienced those issues. Try a different setup person, one that can repair it if needed like a real luthier, not some guitar center clerk.

Yup. There are only two possible scenarios, bad neck or bad tech. And if it's #2 they're likely not smart enough to know if there's some #1 involved.

Bottom line: No matter what it is, I've never had any stringed instrument that, unless the neck was bad, couldn't be properly set up, and that includes intonation. If it's still not right, take it to another tech.

Kirkowitz · #18 05-08-2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSPookie

How high are the pups? The magnets inthe MFDs are pretty strong, so if the pickups are too close to the strings you can have problems like you described. I believe guitar players refer to this as "stratitis."

Good point!

unclejane · #19 05-08-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirkowitz

Good point!

Yeah that's true. Especially in the upper registers the strings can get a little "chorus" to them due to the MFD's. Both my L2000 and L2500 do this a bit up past the 12th fret position. Flats and no frets help with this a little bit, but it'll confound the silly tuner every time.

LS

elBandito · #20 05-08-2009, 12:22 PM

You have a point, but it only works if you have, low relief, low string height and level frets. Not everybody likes that combination and some cant afford to get frets done regularly by pros. So if you intonate by where you play most, those variables dont affect you. I'm just offering a shortcut. Different people like different relief and string height, but they still need to get their bass intonated right? Alot of people think all you have to do is match the 12th, then they find out other notes are out of whack...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lug

As a tech, you start with the 12th as a baseline because you don't know all the variables each bass may have. Sounds like his guy didn't even do that. Matching the 12th usually gives the best overall result. None of mine are off enough to worry about after the 12th. The thing that will effect it most (besides a bad fret positioning job, very unlikely) is excessive string height.

It only gives best overall result when you have other variables to accomodate, and not everybody like the combination. If everybody knew how to setup, techs would lose a big chunk of business. I have friends who wouldnt even change their own strings. There is no magic in this.