High action=Better tone?

Truktek2 · #1 03-09-2011, 08:06 AM

So my guitarist just told me he had his guitar set up with increments of 7/64 on the low E to 5/64 on the high E. He just scoffed when I told him the action on my bass was lower than that. Anyway now he swears up and down that his tone has never been better. This is hogwash right? Even his tech said he never heard of anyone wanting those specs.

pierreganseman · #2 03-09-2011, 08:10 AM

you can get an amazing tone from crazy low action, and the opposite is true as well

202dy · #3 03-09-2011, 08:24 AM

Who likes this action on a guitar? A lot of jazz players play with string heights similar and sometimes higher. Some of the older blues players also prefer stouter action. In both cases, they tend to play heavy string sets, typically 12-52 or 13-56. They all claim better tone.

Unfortunately for the empirically minded there are two variables introduced in the equation, strings and height. So which is it? Or is it both? The guys who believe it is string height also believe they're able to be more articulate. The guys in the string camp claim that thicker strings mean more harmonic content.

It's probably a combination of the two. The high string height allows for a very strong pick attack with plenty of clearance over the frets so that buzz is eliminated. The heavier strings tend to vibrate in a tighter pattern, further enhancing the effect.

As for the harmonic content of thicker strings, who knows? Tone is subjective. One man's cacophony is another man's music of the spheres.

SurferJoe46 · #4 03-09-2011, 09:05 AM

Let's not leave out technique too - the fingers, ya know?

I find if I run low action - somehow the mere touching of the string to fret it creates a small noise that I really have to concentrate upon to keep to a minimum.

If the strings are a little higher from the fretboard, that 'touching' sound disappears.

When I run low - I usually have to use the pad of my fretting finger to settle the string and then roll to the tip to keep the callus - that's the only thing I can think of - from making that odd noise.

After a couple of minutes it becomes a natural motion to 'soft pad+roll' and it really doesn't affect my speed unless I consciously think of it all the time.

Actually though - this only really shows up in quiet moments in the music and otherwise there's no difference that I can hear in the normal mix.

I watch Timothy B. Schmit (my hero bassist) and his extreme 'conservation of motion' playing style and I see he also dampens the rest of the strings when he has just one note being used - but maybe he's just resting his other fingers for the next time he needs to use them. Sometimes I cannot even see him move from one note to another - but I DO notice he likes his action really close and low.

Somehow I think playing like him keeps the 'touching' noise totally in check and he can get away with that low action.

If you can find it - 'Love Will Keep Us Alive' is a YouTube vid that shows his playing style up close in places. Plus he can sing at the same time too.

T-MOST · #5 03-09-2011, 09:09 AM

Like most aspects of music and tone It's ALL in the ear of the beholder.

Eric Moesle · #6 03-09-2011, 12:35 PM

Define the term "better".

Who's preference decides?

I say the owner of the instrument. Someone tries to tell me what is "better" for me and my instrument, I tell them to take a hike and mind their own damned business.

MattyH · #7 03-09-2011, 12:41 PM

If he thinks it sounds better, good for him. If he's happy that's all that matters. I personally agree. Not because of tone or anything like that, but I like my action high, because I love being able to feel like I'm really pushing down on the strings. My hands are used to it, and I don't get tired, but I feel like I'm really rocking the bass hard, and getting a good workout. I tried low action once. I HATED it!

Phalex · #8 03-09-2011, 12:43 PM

I get much better tone with higher action than I do with ultra low action. I have a friend that loves ultra low action and really light gauge strings on his bass. He's fast as hell and an amazing player when he plays with that set up.

I, on the other hand get buzz and fret clack all over the place.

Personally, I think action has more to do with how hard you play with your right hand than how delicately you play with your left.

Nomadskills · #9 03-09-2011, 12:46 PM

Yeah I think it has more do do with how one plays more then anything...

MattyH · #10 03-09-2011, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Moesle

Define the term "better".

Who's preference decides?

I say the owner of the instrument. Someone tries to tell me what is "better" for me and my instrument, I tell them to take a hike and mind their own damned business.

DAMN right. +1. I had a real prick of a fellow basser in high school, who always said having my action high was flat out wrong, my strings were wrong, my technique was wrong, my tone was wrong, I didn't worship Victor Wooten so I shouldn't play bass ever again. 7 years later, he still cant afford new equipment (since high school), can't buy an amp, and can't find a band to play in. Meanwhile, I'm in the most booked band in a highly prestigious and famous Wedding and Entertainment company, doing session work, and making bank playing bass every weekend. Do what makes you happy. I would never tell anyone they're wrong because of a style or preference. Suggestions are one thing, along with trading ideas and experiences. But tell me I'm wrong and I'll flip out.

MattyH · #11 03-09-2011, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phalex

I get much better tone with higher action than I do with ultra low action. I have a friend that loves ultra low action and really light gauge strings on his bass. He's fast as hell and an amazing player when he plays with that set up.

I, on the other hand get buzz and fret clack all over the place.

Personally, I think action has more to do with how hard you play with your right hand than how delicately you play with your left.

Same here. It's almost like I have too much attack for low action. Too clanky for me. I play hard, and if the action is to low, I can't get comfortable. People I've seen with super low action, usually have a really fine touch. A beautiful thing to see, because they usually look graceful and and play like madmen. It's just not for me.

BrandonBass · #12 03-09-2011, 01:05 PM

I play with low action and have a heavy touch, i cant stand it when the action is too high.

partly due to playability, but also due to the tone being too round. I like abit of fret grind ala billy sheehan, steve harris etc.

Martin89 · #13 03-09-2011, 01:06 PM

Since when does anybody believe what a guitarist says?

FretlessMainly · #14 03-09-2011, 01:35 PM

Certainly on an upright bass you get more volume with higher action. Since that allows the sound to project better, one could argue that it allows more "tone" to get to the ear. On electric bass, raising the action could have the opposite effect - if your pickups are at max height, higher action can bring the strings further from the pickup, thereby reducing volume a bit. But, that could concievably affect tone, as having the pickup(s) too close to the strings can result in muddy tone.

So, it's possible that your guitarist raised his action just enough to effectively achieve the same thing he could have achieved with a slight reduction of the pickup(s) height.

Medford Bassman · #15 03-09-2011, 01:37 PM

I play low to medium-low action on my basses. I agree it's my right hand that controls how much clank or buzz I get. I've been finding lately, I'm getting beter tone with a lighter touch than my former heavy hand approach.

again it works for me, may not be for all.

DaveAceofBass · #16 03-09-2011, 01:41 PM

It's all in how you pluck/pull the string, not the action. I've heard guys with high action and wimpy tone, and guys with low action and huge tone.

Truktek2 · #17 03-09-2011, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 202dy

Who likes this action on a guitar? A lot of jazz players play with string heights similar and sometimes higher. Some of the older blues players also prefer stouter action. In both cases, they tend to play heavy string sets, typically 12-52 or 13-56. They all claim better tone.

Unfortunately for the empirically minded there are two variables introduced in the equation, strings and height. So which is it? Or is it both? The guys who believe it is string height also believe they're able to be more articulate. The guys in the string camp claim that thicker strings mean more harmonic content.

It's probably a combination of the two. The high string height allows for a very strong pick attack with plenty of clearance over the frets so that buzz is eliminated. The heavier strings tend to vibrate in a tighter pattern, further enhancing the effect.

As for the harmonic content of thicker strings, who knows? Tone is subjective. One man's cacophony is another man's music of the spheres.

Thanks for that post. That makes perfect sense. So it's not the action that changes the tone per se, but the fact that the player is able to indirectly change his tone by altering his style. Now that makes sense. Otherwise like someone else posted, they could just change their pckup height. Live and Learn

Oh well, guess I owe my guitarist an apology

StyleOverShow · #18 03-09-2011, 03:03 PM

Had some work done on a Gibson and it came back with a high action setup. I asked the owner/tech "what gives", and he said that the strings need room to vibrate. It made perfect sense and it sounded so good.

My preference is high action on fretless and low on fast action necks like my MM Sterling.

Ric5 · #19 03-09-2011, 03:07 PM

High action seems to be a tone sucker when I play bass. Also too low of action will make the bass buzz out and sound bad.

Ric5 · #20 03-09-2011, 03:09 PM

Sometimes you hear about a famous guitar that was owned by a now deceased artist having high action. Then people assume the high action was part of their tone. Well maybe the high action is simply a guitar that has not been adjusted in years.