Is high action really that bad??? plz respond

[highwattage]

Over the last year or so I have been watching videos of other bassists on youtube and how they have really high end basses (warwick and spector in particular) but they have their action set so low all they get is buzz. They do this to acieve low action. My action is about 3.75- 4mm measuring from the top of the 12th fret. I can really attack the strings without even an initial single rattle, which I really need because I'm beginning to use some of the more exotic techniques (double & triple thumping, sweeping, etc.) My some is much cleaner and more pure than it used to be with buzz. I have also noticed my left hand has gotten much (10x) stronger since I have done this.

Which brings me to my question. Other than making the instrument more difficult to play, is there any real down side to high action (increased likelyhood on left hand injury? neck/ truss rod problems? Can it actually be beneficial?

[the_fooj]

Yeah, I say if you can live with it then more power to you. I always sort of felt that a little bit higher action allows for a little more dynamics, because with really low action if you pluck too hard you'll get buzzing. A lot of people that use the really low action however, just use a light touch and turn their volumes up to compensate. I guess it just depends on your playing style. I've found myself playing more aggressively over the years (in rock stuff), so my action on some basses has gone up just a little bit.

One more thing to remember is that if the buzzing doesn't come through the amp then you're ok, and the slight buzzing that might come through won't be audible in a band situation anyway.

[cofibreyk]

yup i agree ^

[murph.vienna]

i met a cello player and he plays electric bass in a band, the bass sounded great so I asked him to play it. I can nearly get my pinky between E string and 12th fret, but he likes it. he has to change instruments often, so I think this is his best solution.

i think electric instruments are electric, and when you need them louder, turn up the volume. I like the fact that I can solo through a whole day without my left hand getting sore.

but back to the "is it changing the sound" issue. I have only noticed this on my ibanez, which has a 3pc maple neck. this is a bastard sometimes because the truss rod changes make so much difference to the sound. when I have a straight set neck and low action it's really modern sounding, not too much balls.
when loosening the rod the sound gets more and more thumpy and looses highs, and not modern sounding at all.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by murph.vienna

I have only noticed this on my ibanez, which has a 3pc maple neck. this is a bastard sometimes because the truss rod changes make so much difference to the sound. when I have a straight set neck and low action it's really modern sounding, not too much balls.
when loosening the rod the sound gets more and more thumpy and looses highs, and not modern sounding at all.

How does adjusting the truss rod change the tone? Since neither the mass or electronics of the instrument have changed, how does a mechanical adjustment come to bear? Since the neck remains constant, has the body material transmuted from one species to another?

Coupled with the necessary changes at the amp, might it not be that one's technique changes due to the action and it is this that actually affects the tone of the instrument?

[netbot]

Originally Posted by murph.vienna

i met a cello player and he plays electric bass in a band, the bass sounded great so I asked him to play it. I can nearly get my pinky between E string and 12th fret, but he likes it. he has to change instruments often, so I think this is his best solution.

i think electric instruments are electric, and when you need them louder, turn up the volume. I like the fact that I can solo through a whole day without my left hand getting sore.

but back to the "is it changing the sound" issue. I have only noticed this on my ibanez, which has a 3pc maple neck. this is a bastard sometimes because the truss rod changes make so much difference to the sound. when I have a straight set neck and low action it's really modern sounding, not too much balls.
when loosening the rod the sound gets more and more thumpy and looses highs, and not modern sounding at all.

do you adjust the pickups too? if not, then it's clear why it's get more thumb: the strings are more far away from the magnetics and this will add more bass.

[StealingYerMail]

If you like high action, use it! You should see the action on my Ibanez SRX300. It's crazy. None of my friends can play the thing, because it's so high. However, the my Corvette's action is incredibly low. I get no buzz at all if I use higher tension strings... but when using strings DRs, I get a little buzz here and there.

As long as your neck and the like are set up for the high action, you should be fine. Your instruments should be set up the way you like them; not the way that everyone else does it.

Like I said though, I have really high action on my Ibanez bass, and I used to like it that way. I had a hard time slapping on that bass, but I can slap a lot smoother, cleaner, and more consistently on my Warwick. I believe that's due to the low action.

But if you like it high, then play it that way.

[highwattage]

Thanks for your help guys,
I have a Palmer 5-string bass and I resently put emg active p-js on it. Is it possible that the active pickups can amplify buzz more (not that im getting any, I'm just curious).

[202dy]

Pickups are electo-mechanical transducers. As such, they take the mechanical energy of the vibrating string and turn it into electricity. Active pickups use a source of electricity (battery) to create a stronger signal, typically because the pickup is low impedance and has a lower output than high impedance passive pickups.

To answer your question, garbage in=garbage out. Active pickups will send a stronger signal to your preamp but will not selectively increase "buzz" over the rest of the signal.

[murph.vienna]

Originally Posted by 202dy

How does adjusting the truss rod change the tone? Since neither the mass or electronics of the instrument have changed, how does a mechanical adjustment come to bear? Since the neck remains constant, has the body material transmuted from one species to another?

Coupled with the necessary changes at the amp, might it not be that one's technique changes due to the action and it is this that actually affects the tone of the instrument?

One thing I know for sure is that tension (you are aware that the truss rod expands against the fretboard) changes harmonic structures and stressed wood always sounds different from resting wood.

And I think I know my basses, esp. the ibanez which virtually was with my day and night for about one year. I dont make this up, otherwise I won't share my thoughts with you if I weren't proof of it.

Originally Posted by netbot

do you adjust the pickups too? if not, then it's clear why it's get more thumb: the strings are more far away from the magnetics and this will add more bass.

The pickup height does not change the sound in the way the trussrod did. the pickups increase and decrease volume with height, but I cant turn em down that much that the added bass goes away.

I think there is not one "ultimate" formula, but one for every player indeed... and even for every single instrument.

whatever, this is going hocus pocus..

[202dy]

Originally Posted by murph.vienna

One thing I know for sure is that tension (you are aware that the truss rod expands against the fretboard) changes harmonic structures and stressed wood always sounds different from resting wood.

And I think I know my basses, esp. the ibanez which virtually was with my day and night for about one year. I dont make this up, otherwise I won't share my thoughts with you if I weren't proof of it.

Assuming that English is a second language for you, the sarcasm will be ignored.

Truss rods are typically made of steel. The only way to make them expand is by the application of heat. The amount of heat needed to make the rod expand an amount that would bring it to bear on the filet below the fingerboard exceeds the temperature that would cause the instrument to burst into flame.

Truss rods work on compression, and in dual action truss rods, tension. Typically, a truss rod is fixed on one end and loose on the other. The truss rod nut (loose end) bears against the end of the neck. When it is tightened, it "squeezes" the neck along it's length bringing the neck into compression. Since there is more lumber on the fingerboard side of the truss rod than on the other side this action causes the neck to bow toward the strings.

Your contention that stressed wood sounds different from wood that is "relaxed" is probably true. The question is what kind of meter would be necessary to measure a difference this small.

The pickup height does not change the sound in the way the trussrod did. the pickups increase and decrease volume with height, but I cant turn em down that much that the added bass goes away.

I think there is not one "ultimate" formula, but one for every player indeed... and even for every single instrument.

whatever, this is going hocus pocus..

While it is true that wood can make adjusting a mechanical system somewhat frustrating, a musical instrument is a simply a machine. There are simple and complex scientific principles that govern the construction and regulation of musical instruments. That does not admit the application of anything beyond science is necessary to affect a change to a guitar. Luthiery, no matter what the public perception, is not voo doo. We do not keep vials of gris-gris dust next to the jars of rosewood and ebony. However, it is admitted that, occasionally, oaths bordering on incantations have been muttered by some during the practice of the craft.

[murph.vienna]

thanks for reminding I am not a native speaker.
thanks for the corrections

Originally Posted by 202dy

a musical instrument is a simply a machine.

really??

[zeb_bass]

hi 202dy,

let your ears judge! murph.vienna is 100% right it makes a huge difference! And I really mean huge! Like two different basses we are not talking nuances here! If you haven´t heared it or never experinced it then I guess you haven´t even started to familiarize yourself with you instrument. I experince the same on my Fender 5 string Deluxe Jazz.

The scientific approach you have presented so far is just an ignorant oversimplification! Let me tell you that I am a materials engineer and hold a Ph.D. in physics, so I am not exactly an layman in terms of materials and physics. But I will happily admit that i don´t understand jack **** about the engineering and physics of a well sounding bass.

The effect however is more pronounced with basses wich have an intrinsiclly very rigid construction (e.g. 3 pcs. maple, carbon enforcment rods...). In that case you can go from a very stiff to a normal stiffnes neck by loosing the trussrod.
So the direction you should think in, is tension, stiffnes, rigidity... of the neck which you alter.

For example have you ever played a carbon fiber necked bass ? I had one for approx. 7 years and let me tell you they sound very even but at the same time also like ****! Your strings will die within a few playing hours, you will hear differences in sets of strings you have never heard before....because they sound like your strings and not like a bass!

Why is a Fender Jazz Bass with a very slim 3 bolt neck such a beautifull sounding instrument? Because all the flaws in construction make it a very nice breathing, soulfull instrument.

Why haven´t I ever heard a good sounding 5 string Jazz Bass. Because this swirling loose neck just sounds excellent contray to what an engineer would believe or what have constructed. Just be open minded and let your ears and your own personal taste be the judge!

have a nice day guys


cheers
zeb

[202dy]

Originally Posted by zeb_bass

hi 202dy,

let your ears judge! murph.vienna is 100% right it makes a huge difference! And I really mean huge! Like two different basses we are not talking nuances here! If you haven´t heared it or never experinced it then I guess you haven´t even started to familiarize yourself with you instrument. I experince the same on my Fender 5 string Deluxe Jazz.

Again, since English is your second language, it is to be assumed that sarcastic attack is unintended. As such, it will be ignored.

The scientific approach you have presented so far is just an ignorant oversimplification! Let me tell you that I am a materials engineer and hold a Ph.D. in physics, so I am not exactly an layman in terms of materials and physics. But I will happily admit that i don´t understand jack **** about the engineering and physics of a well sounding bass.

This argument is a logical fallacy known as an appeal to authority. Therefore it does not support any of the arguments presented. However, you are to be commended on your ability to achieve in an academic atmosphere.

The effect however is more pronounced with basses wich have an intrinsiclly very rigid construction (e.g. 3 pcs. maple, carbon enforcment rods...). In that case you can go from a very stiff to a normal stiffnes neck by loosing the trussrod.
So the direction you should think in, is tension, stiffnes, rigidity... of the neck which you alter.

For example have you ever played a carbon fiber necked bass ? I had one for approx. 7 years and let me tell you they sound very even but at the same time also like ****! Your strings will die within a few playing hours, you will hear differences in sets of strings you have never heard before....because they sound like your strings and not like a bass!

Why is a Fender Jazz Bass with a very slim 3 bolt neck such a beautifull sounding instrument? Because all the flaws in construction make it a very nice breathing, soulfull instrument.

Why haven´t I ever heard a good sounding 5 string Jazz Bass. Because this swirling loose neck just sounds excellent contray to what an engineer would believe or what have constructed. Just be open minded and let your ears and your own personal taste be the judge!

have a nice day guys


cheers
zeb

These comments are subjective. They offer nothing but assertion and emotion. While it is true that tightening the truss rod may offer a certain amount (how much?) of stiffness to the neck what kind of metering is needed to measure the difference? The human ear is notoriously inaccurate.

I believe Fender did a study in the sixties on psychoacoustics. A subject was placed in a room and listened to various guitars blindfolded. When told that a different guitar was going to be played the subject could hear the difference. However, sometimes it was the guitar that was just played. The gist of the experiment is that we hear what we are expecting to hear.

Leo Fender started designing guitar pickups in the 1940's. He considered the Telecaster bridge pickup his breakthrough. (The neck pickup on the Tele was there so that a guitar player could double on bass without a URB. That part didn't work out so well.) He continued to experiment for the rest of his life. Before his death he declared that he had reached his crowning achievement with the development of the ASAT bridge pickup. Interestingly, the ASAT pickup utilizes the same wire gauge as the original Telecaster pickup. Not only that, but the D.C. resistance was identical to the original. After some fifty years Leo came full circle to his original design. This is psychoacoustics at work.

Different guitars sound different. Pickups and electronics play a huge role in the mix as do neck stiffness and density. Body composition also plays a role. However, the change in stiffness that is caused by tightening a truss rod will, for most of us, provide the effect that we want to hear.

When you can measure it, let us know.

[makaky]

High action = high tension change when pressing a note = Detune

simple

unless you play a fretless or double bass. You can change the pitch with your finger position

[Febs]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Again, since English is your second language, it is to be assumed that sarcastic attack is unintended. As such, it will be ignored.

If you're going to ignore the alleged "sarcastic attack," then ignore it. Highlighting the statement while at the same time making a patronizing comment about how you will ignore it is the height of hypocrisy, and appears to be nothing more than a thinly-veiled ad hominem attack. Since you rely so heavily on exposition of logical fallacies, you should know better.

[bassrique]

For example have you ever played a carbon fiber necked bass ? I had one for approx. 7 years and let me tell you they sound very even but at the same time also like ****!

What carbon fiber necked bass have you been playing that sounds like ----?

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Febs

If you're going to ignore the alleged "sarcastic attack," then ignore it. Highlighting the statement while at the same time making a patronizing comment about how you will ignore it is the height of hypocrisy, and appears to be nothing more than a thinly-veiled ad hominem attack. Since you rely so heavily on exposition of logical fallacies, you should know better.

You are correct. The second sentence in the comment is patronizing and that is unnecessary. I apologize.

It was constructed to be a soft response to a hard attack. The first rule on TalkBass is respect for other posters. Quite frankly, assuming an unknown individual's experience level in a blind forum and referring to an opinion as an ignorant oversimplification runs counter to this ideal. My comments are in no way an ad hominem attack nor does the language fit the definition that fallacy. The comment supports the poster, and rather it is meant to clarify for others that the poster may not have a complete command of the nuances of the English language and that because of that no offense is taken. There is nothing more to be read into it. This is strictly an exchange of information. The comment is made to bring the discussion back on track.

After all, this discussion is becoming an argument that is straying far off topic.