High frets buzzing issue.

[pbassist]

Hi,

I just installed a Gotoh 201 bridge on my MIM p-bass. I had to shim it with 3* 0,5mm thick cards (1.5mm total, around 0.06 inches).

Then I adjusted intonation and the neck relief to around 0.010 inches at the 8th fret (using the usual procedure). Currently I have an slight buzz between the 1st and 15th frets (I like low action), but I have lot's of buzzes between the 16th and 20th frets that make them almost unplayable (take care that these frets are just above the neck pocket, so I'm not sure if the truss rod will affect them).

Any ideas of what could be happening? I lowered the action a bit compared to my previous setup, but I think that this does not justify the higher frets buzzes (which didn't happened before).

Thanks (and please excuse my bad English).

[debassr]

It sounds like your action is set too low and your truss rod is too tight.

[Solarmist]

Check your neck relief using your outer strings as a straightedge - capo 1st & last - check clearance in center around 8th.

[pbassist]

Thanks, I did so and the distance from the 8th fret to the string is 0.010 inches... from 1st to 15th fret I only have slight buzzes and plays really great with low action. The issue is the 16th and above (where I think that the truss rod has not effect due to the neck pocket screws).

[Mr.Bassie720]

just had this same issue.a hump existed on the fretboard.trussrod adjustment would no fix this. frets 12 to 17 where removed. fretboard was leveled. frets were put back on. all frets crowned and polished. bass now plays better than when new. i mean it is absolutely perfect.

[pbassist]

Thanks, but paying a good luthier for doing the job it's out of my budget now and I think that leveling frets is too much risk for a DIY work. I measured the distance between the 12th fret and the E string while pressing the 1st fret and it's around 0.75mm (0.03 inches)... I could lower it a bit more but I can't due the higher frets.

[JLS]

Your action's too low, and you have fenderitis. Until you have that dealt with, either by leveling frets 16-up, or pulling them, and leveling the fingerboard, you're going to have the problem you described.

Action of .30 at the 12th fret just ain't a happenin' situation, you're going to have to get real; even pleking isn't going to get you action that low.

[Rick Auricchio]

.030, not .30, just to make a minor correction, but your point is taken.

Out of curiosity, what's "Fenderitis?"

[JLS]

That's what us geezers call the skijump, when the neck kinks at about the 15th fret, of a bolt-on.

Typoed .30; .030 is the diameter of the D string in an extra-light set of acoustic guitar strings. Even the mighty Plek, ain't gonna get you there!

[debassr]

I personally don't understand why people measure the action when setting up a bass for the lowest action possible. I just get the neck as straight as possible, give it a 1/4 turn of relief, drop the saddles until I get a slight buzz on each string, and then bring the saddles up a 1/4 turn. Check intonation, done.

[pbassist]

Originally Posted by JLS

Your action's too low, and you have fenderitis. Until you have that dealt with, either by leveling frets 16-up, or pulling them, and leveling the fingerboard, you're going to have the problem you described.

Action of .30 at the 12th fret just ain't a happenin' situation, you're going to have to get real; even pleking isn't going to get you action that low.

Well, I can get a bit down (0.020-0.025) if I forget about the higher frets... about fendertitis... maybe ... my Yamaha TRB5P sleeps in it case since I got the fender... and it is a very very good bass... the question is that I enjoy a bit more with the fender .

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

.030, not .30, just to make a minor correction, but your point is taken.

Out of curiosity, what's "Fenderitis?"

Originally Posted by JLS

That's what us geezers call the skijump, when the neck kinks at about the 15th fret, of a bolt-on.

Typoed .30; .030 is the diameter of the D string in an extra-light set of acoustic guitar strings. Even the mighty Plek, ain't gonna get you there!

I can get a bit down if it wold not be the higher frets issue, really! In fact I think that the Yamaha has even lower action than this (I'm too lazy now to take it of its case to measure it). Changing the bridge to a higher mass one allows me to play in a more soft and percussive way, so currently I almost don't get buzzes below the 15th fret with this action.

Originally Posted by debassr

I personally don't understand why people measure the action when setting up a bass for the lowest action possible. I just get the neck as straight as possible, give it a 1/4 turn of relief, drop the saddles until I get a slight buzz on each string, and then bring the saddles up a 1/4 turn. Check intonation, done.

I measured the action after setting it only to post a reference in the forum... you went to the wrong situation!

What I do is setting up a 0.010 relief on the neck, lowering the saddles and checking if I have more buzzes in some frets than others, if so I adjust the truss rod again and I lower the saddles a bit more till I have an slight uniform buzz.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by debassr

I personally don't understand why people measure the action when setting up a bass for the lowest action possible. I just get the neck as straight as possible, give it a 1/4 turn of relief, drop the saddles until I get a slight buzz on each string, and then bring the saddles up a 1/4 turn. Check intonation, done.

The reasons you should take measurements are to establish a base line and repeatability. If you have the data on your last good setup you can make quick tweaks to bring your instrument back into spec when it has a problem. This repeatability is key for every pro tech. It should be for anyone interested in keeping their guitars playing in top form. Having this data also makes it much easier to diagnose a problem when normal setup procedures aren't working.

[JLS]

that the action measured at the 12th fret, is such that a D acoustic guitar string would go between the fret & the string, touching both? And that your other bass would slip a guitar G string in the same place?

I'm sorry, I can't buy this--I've been working on instruments too long. Post some photos.

[pbassist]

Sorry, but I don't have a camera suitable for such detailed photo here (I just have my mobile phone one). I measured it with a a set of Jim Dunlop plectrums: 0.73mm fits very narrowly (in fact moves a bit the string), and 0.60mm fits with no problem leaving a small space with the string. 0.88mm simply does not fit. I took 0.75mmm, because is just around 0.03 inches, but it's even a bit less.

All measures taken on the 12th fret while pressing the 1st one with around a 0.010" neck relief (less than a 0.38mm pick).

And this can be lowered a bit although I get the high frets buzzes and I start to lost the low end while getting more mids and an compressed-like sound (I tried lowering a bit more the strings before practicing today and this is what I got, I didn't liked it).

[JLS]

This is nuts. Good luck.

[202dy]

Nuts? Not really.

Part of what is confusing the issue is that the OP is pressing the string down at the first fret while taking the measurement. Rather, string height measurements are typically taken with the string at rest, unhindered by fingers and capos, and with the guitar in playing position. Any deviation from this accepted norm is going to cause some problems in translation. The other thing that is almost impossible to know is how much buzz is a slight buzz. It is different for everybody. If the OP plays with a light touch and a lot of distortion, his slight buzz might be major string to fret contact for someone else. All of theses things could be contributing to the trouble with understanding what is wrong. I would suggest to pbassist, in the interest of getting accurate advise, to purchase and use an engineers scale in either metric or gradiations of sixty fourths. An inexpensive one can be had at a good hardware store for less than ten bucks. Picks and feeler gauges are impractical for obtaining this data.

[pbassist]

I was looking the videos of this page:

http://www.myspace.com/talwilkenfeld

and I think that this girl has lower action in her bass than mine, just check when she does a solo in the higher frets how near are the strings from the fretboard. If not she would no will be able to play as fast with such little fingers. I don't know why my setup is so strange, I have seen lot of basses whit even a bit lower action than mine.

[pbassist]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Nuts? Not really.

Part of what is confusing the issue is that the OP is pressing the string down at the first fret while taking the measurement. Rather, string height measurements are typically taken with the string at rest, unhindered by fingers and capos, and with the guitar in playing position. Any deviation from this accepted norm is going to cause some problems in translation. The other thing that is almost impossible to know is how much buzz is a slight buzz. It is different for everybody. If the OP plays with a light touch and a lot of distortion, his slight buzz might be major string to fret contact for someone else. All of theses things could be contributing to the trouble with understanding what is wrong. I would suggest to pbassist, in the interest of getting accurate advise, to purchase and use an engineers scale in either metric or gradiations of sixty fourths. An inexpensive one can be had at a good hardware store for less than ten bucks. Picks and feeler gauges are impractical for obtaining this data.

The issue of measuring without pressing the firs fret is that this is dependent of your nut setup. Currently I have the original nut unmodified, as I don't have proper files for it. I think that pressing the first fret is a more reliable measure for comparing to other basses that wil have different nut setups.

Anyway The jim dunlop plectrums are a bit used and I noticed that they are a bit deformed (as they are made of a flexible plastic material). Getting a precision scale would be nice, but currently I need other stuff first (for example a set of nut files) and my money is limited, so it will have to wait.

Anyway I had around here some brand-new hard plastic plectrums (Fender tortoise like), and a 0.96mm one fits narrowly. 1.21mm does not fit. without pressing the 1st fret the 1.21 still does not fit, think 1.1mm (around 0.043") in this scenario. So I think that 1mm (around 0.04 inches) is a more accurate measure (pressing the 1st fret).


Anyway this is a MIM neck, and I could lower it even a bit more, But I think that with a better neck is achievable to get 0.03" and even 0.02" (in fact I have seen it in several USA fenders much lower than mine and my Yamaha TRB5P is currently set up with bit lower action than the Fender) with some buzzing but still playable. I play with fingers and very softly, so buzz is not an issue for me as it could be for a plectrum player.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by pbassist

The issue of measuring without pressing the firs fret is that this is dependent of your nut setup. Currently I have the original nut unmodified, as I don't have proper files for it. I think that pressing the first fret is a more reliable measure for comparing to other basses that wil have different nut setups.

First of all, you are to be commended for taking measurements and supplying data. It is much easier to diagnose a problem over the internet when the numbers are available. However,the outlined method is the way virtually every pro measures string height. It is also the norm on the sites that are pinned to the sticky at the top of the page. Ergo, the way everybody does it on TB. All data sets are based on this method and using it is the only way to compare apples to apples. If your data is derived from a different methodology, then you will be receiving answers that will be of little help. Sorry.

[pbassist]

Originally Posted by 202dy

First of all, you are to be commended for taking measurements and supplying data. It is much easier to diagnose a problem over the internet when the numbers are available. However,the outlined method is the way virtually every pro measures string height. It is also the norm on the sites that are pinned to the sticky at the top of the page. Ergo, the way everybody does it on TB. All data sets are based on this method and using it is the only way to compare apples to apples. If your data is derived from a different methodology, then you will be receiving answers that will be of little help. Sorry.

I know, but I measured the best way I could... in all measures you can have an error... with the hard plectrums you can think of a +/-10% error, which is high, but at least can give you an idea.

Anyway take care that in the real world the measuring equipment is different from one place to another, so it's almost as important to describe the measuring methodology (what I did), than having expensive equipment without using an measuring metodolgy. In fact precision equipment can be less useful that you can think in research/production environments, and you can even see statistics as just a matter of interpretation.