How to maintain low tension with higher action?

[MistaMarko]

I've been testing quite a few different sets of strings on my 7-string and I've finally found a set that sound amazing (Circle K strings). However, this is the first time for me to use strings with the tapered end at the bridge. I read that I'd have to compensate and raise the saddles for this. So:

- Changed from normal strings to ones with tapered ends at bridge.

- Figured and have read at a few places I'd need to raise the saddles higher to compensate. I figure this is correct because I have IMMENSE fret buzzing on most of the neck, especially on fret 3.

- When I raise the strings up to the point where the fret buzzing is gone, I'm basically trying to fret down power lines as they're so high and the tension is insane. I figure straightening the neck would help, but this just brings the fret buzz back.

I'm just trying to figure out if getting the best of both worlds is possible. Fret 3 on the low B and E strings (especially) the buzzing is so bad I can't even hear the note at times. Since then I've made slight adjustments and it's helped, but the buzzing is still there. Frets 2 and 4 around it don't buzz though. Kind of an irritating issue.

[202dy]

String tension is pitch dependent. For a given pitch, a string will have X tension. Set up has zero effect on tension.

[Jim Nazium]

Originally Posted by 202dy

String tension is pitch dependent. For a given pitch, a string will have X tension. Set up has zero effect on tension.

That's true for open strings. However, to play a fretted note, you have to stretch the string down to the fretboard, and the higher the action is, the more you need to stretch it.

To the OP: I've never had that problem when using tapered-end strings. You should be able to raise the bridge saddle just enough that the bottom surface of the string is in the same place as a regular string, and I think that would give you the same effective action height (the same distance to stretch the string). Is the rest of the setup OK?

[MistaMarko]

I consider myself to know setups fairly well, but that was with 4-5 strings. The territory for setting up this 7-string seems to different and all of the usual techniques and standards don't seem to apply. It's like trying to treat a common cold versus some super rare genetic disorder...haha.

I think it's fine, though. And I also don't see how setup doesn't affect tension. Maybe I'm using the word tension wrong, but the "firmness" and "tightness" of the strings. If I raise the action via bridge saddles, I can definitely tell a difference in the playability.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Jim Nazium

That's true for open strings. However, to play a fretted note, you have to stretch the string down to the fretboard, and the higher the action is, the more you need to stretch it.

Doesn't matter if the string is fretted or not. Tension for a given string is constant at pitch.

The OP is probably referring to how the string feels. That is not tension. It is flexibility.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by MistaMarko

I consider myself to know setups fairly well, but that was with 4-5 strings. The territory for setting up this 7-string seems to different and all of the usual techniques and standards don't seem to apply. It's like trying to treat a common cold versus some super rare genetic disorder...haha.

I think it's fine, though. And I also don't see how setup doesn't affect tension. Maybe I'm using the word tension wrong, but the "firmness" and "tightness" of the strings. If I raise the action via bridge saddles, I can definitely tell a difference in the playability.

Flexibility, or just flex, is the common term. Some may refer to it as compliance.

For more information than you probably want see:

String tension. Thanks to Stedtale, who first posted the link in 2007.

[MistaMarko]

Gotcha. Well, replace the word 'tension' in my OP with 'flexibility' every time it occurs .

[walterw]

right.

and in answer to the question, if you can't get low action without buzzing or dead notes, you need a proper setup, maybe even fretwork.

[darkstorm]

Start the old fashioned way. Adjust truss rod for near dead flat straight. Then adjust each saddle for each string individually for best action. It is my belief, and from my limited experiments with tapered strings that they do tend to move more then regular ones making fret buzz more common. I'm not a fan of them for this and another reason. Your best bet if you dont like the extra string movement, imo is stop useing taper end and go back to regular. Though it does also sound like your bass may need some fretwork done for best action to.

[alec]

These new strings may have a lower tension than your old ones, which would mean your truss rod is over-correcting for tension that is no longer being applied to the neck.
If you look straight down the neck do you see it bowing towards the strings? If so, loosen truss.

[ehque]

It's also known that Circle Ks are more flexible than many other strings. If using the same plucking force, the string path becomes a larger circle and you'll need slightly more relief to compensate.

[Zooberwerx]

New strings...especially tapered sets = new set-up. And I mean everything including nut slots, relief, intonation, and string height.

Riis

[jrfrond]

Originally Posted by walterw

right.

and in answer to the question, if you can't get low action without buzzing or dead notes, you need a proper setup, maybe even fretwork.

I agree 100%. I always set up with a dead-flat neck, as this makes fretting the notes feel easier, even if you have to set the action higher to get rid of buzz. String height is a coarse measurement, but there are other factors involved. Don't judge your instrument by string height, but rather playability. If you have issues with the neck dead-flat, then you either have an improper setup, neck/fret issues, or both, regardless of what type of strings you use.

[MistaMarko]

I watched a 4-part tutorial by John Carruthers with the Elixir videos, and read this specifically for my bass (as this is the exact one I own):

Groove Tools by Conklin Setup Information

I haven't located a feeler gauge yet, and I'll try to, but simply measuring it looks about 1/16" from fret to string when first+last frets are fretted, so the neck seems at the right relief, although I might be able to afford a tad more.

Now, my main issue that is arising now (and always has since I acquired this bass) is how to deal with dual truss rods. I've read numerous stuff saying they have to be equal in tension, other places say it doesn't matter, so I'm just unsure of how to really use them. Instinctively I've just been adjusting them equally. Lastly, my biggest qualm with adjusting the string heights to the radius of the fingerboard is that on a 7-string bass, the low B string is 382910308 times the size of the puny high F, so to have the high F and the low B at the same position (the lowest position for each), the low B is practically touching the fingerboard. The arc works on 4-strings but it just cannot work on a 7 from my experience thus far. So I have to raise the low B and E really high, almost higher than the A string. Bottom line this stuff is just getting hairy because it's so far away from the traditional 4 and 5 string-bass setups I'm used to.

[ehque]

Originally Posted by MistaMarko

Now, my main issue that is arising now (and always has since I acquired this bass) is how to deal with dual truss rods. I've read numerous stuff saying they have to be equal in tension, other places say it doesn't matter, so I'm just unsure of how to really use them. Instinctively I've just been adjusting them equally.

I say use them equally then do minor adjustments for optimum relief at your low and high strings seperately.

Originally Posted by MistaMarko

Lastly, my biggest qualm with adjusting the string heights to the radius of the fingerboard is that on a 7-string bass, the low B string is 382910308 times the size of the puny high F, so to have the high F and the low B at the same position (the lowest position for each), the low B is practically touching the fingerboard. The arc works on 4-strings but it just cannot work on a 7 from my experience thus far. So I have to raise the low B and E really high, almost higher than the A string. Bottom line this stuff is just getting hairy because it's so far away from the traditional 4 and 5 string-bass setups I'm used to.

Even for 4 string basses the radius of the bridge does not follow exactly the radius of the fretboard. Lower strings have more mass and hence vibrate more - they will need a higher action (distance to fret) to be buzz-free. Generally action will be decreasing from low string to high.

[BassBob1]

Originally Posted by MistaMarko

I watched a 4-part tutorial by John Carruthers with the Elixir videos, and read this specifically for my bass (as this is the exact one I own):

Groove Tools by Conklin Setup Information

I haven't located a feeler gauge yet, and I'll try to, but simply measuring it looks about 1/16" from fret to string when first+last frets are fretted, so the neck seems at the right relief, although I might be able to afford a tad more.

Now, my main issue that is arising now (and always has since I acquired this bass) is how to deal with dual truss rods. I've read numerous stuff saying they have to be equal in tension, other places say it doesn't matter, so I'm just unsure of how to really use them. Instinctively I've just been adjusting them equally. Lastly, my biggest qualm with adjusting the string heights to the radius of the fingerboard is that on a 7-string bass, the low B string is 382910308 times the size of the puny high F, so to have the high F and the low B at the same position (the lowest position for each), the low B is practically touching the fingerboard. The arc works on 4-strings but it just cannot work on a 7 from my experience thus far. So I have to raise the low B and E really high, almost higher than the A string. Bottom line this stuff is just getting hairy because it's so far away from the traditional 4 and 5 string-bass setups I'm used to.

check and auto parts store for a feeler gauge if you really need one. They usually have them for gapping spark plugs.

[MistaMarko]

Good suggestion, I'll check there.

[maturanesa]

are you adjusting your intonation at 12 fret after rising up the strings?

When you rise them, the distance between the nut and the saddle is longer. So the tension would be a bit tighter, and the octave at the 12 fret would be a bit out of tune.
You got to move the saddle more to the front to short the string, that would give you the correct pitch at the 12 fret and give back the same tension you got before.

[walterw]

not quite.

when you raise the saddle, the distance from the nut doesn't change.

rather, when the action gets higher, it causes the string to stretch more when you fret it, going sharp; the saddle needs to move back, to lengthen the string, to compensate.

[maturanesa]

Originally Posted by walterw

not quite.

when you raise the saddle, the distance from the nut doesn't change.

rather, when the action gets higher, it causes the string to stretch more when you fret it, going sharp; the saddle needs to move back, to lengthen the string, to compensate.

when the action is higher the line between the nut and the saddle (string) is longer. Not a huge difference, but its longer. Its a geom equation:



AC = saddle height
CB = string

more AC results in a longer CB