How often can a neck be refretted?

[Santraginus]

I am contemplating about how long I may enjoy my new Sadowsky.... So, if I happen to play it a lot, I'll need fret dressing / recrowning in a couple of years, and after a couple of times, a refret.

Since the old frets will have to be pulled out, and new ones pressed/glued in, there will be a little damage done to the fret slots.
Therefore, I suspect that a refret can be done only a certain number of times before the fretboard would need to be replaced. True?

Hence, my question is: How often is it possible to refret a neck without having to replace the fretboard?

My question may be rather rethorical... I am 38... so I think my bass will live longer than I will...

[202dy]

Short answer: Many times. Three or four refrets are not a big deal. If your tech is top notch and knows the tricks to preserving or resurrecting the slots, double the number should not be out of the question. Of course, rosewood is easier to hide the repair work than is maple but it still can be done quite a few times.

The most important part of the refret is the luthier. Find a good one and build a relationship with them. The rest is just fancy wire and some sandpaper. And a few machinists tools thrown in for good measure.

[Santraginus]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Short answer: Many times. Three or four refrets are not a big deal. If your tech is top notch and knows the tricks to preserving or resurrecting the slots, double the number should not be out of the question. Of course, rosewood is easier to hide the repair work than is maple but it still can be done quite a few times.

The most important part of the refret is the luthier. Find a good one and build a relationship with them. The rest is just fancy wire and some sandpaper. And a few machinists tools thrown in for good measure.

Thanks for your answer! Did you actually have a bass refretted that often?

[202dy]

No. I've performed the work on instruments that have been that have been refretted that many times.

Only one of my personal instruments has been dressed. That was over thirty years ago before I had developed the skills. It is almost due again. The rest are in good shape.

It's all in the hands. Some players have a light touch and can get thousands and thousands of hours out of their frets. Others grind and bend and treat it like they're in love with a woman they can't stand. They get less time out of their frets.

[Santraginus]

Thanks again!

[Pilgrim]

You have to figure that frets are like brake pads on a car - they're a part with a finite service life. Just use the bass with care and they'll last a long time.

[Darkstrike]

Could'nt you get stainless steel frets which are harder than regular frets, they would last longer, although usually I use nickel flats.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Darkstrike

Could'nt you get stainless steel frets which are harder than regular frets, they would last longer, although usually I use nickel flats.

Yes. S.S. frets are harder than strings. That means more frequent string changes.

There is no free lunch.

[Santraginus]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

You have to figure that frets are like brake pads on a car - they're a part with a finite service life. Just use the bass with care and they'll last a long time.

Thanks!
Well, I think that this is what I already had figured out - my question was more directed towards how often they can be changed without having to replace the fretboard.

I picked up Dan Erlewine's Guitar Repair Guide... He's using a method of glueing the frets in and writes that they may be easily pulled out again after heating them a bit.
This method seems quite good in terms of reducing damage done to the fretboard wood.
Do you agree to that?

[meev992]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Yes. S.S. frets are harder than strings. That means more frequent string changes.

There is no free lunch.

no kidding, it sounds like it would be cheaper to just go with softer frets, compared with the lifetime of the instrument and the frequent string changes.....$$$

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Santraginus

Thanks!
Well, I think that this is what I already had figured out - my question was more directed towards how often they can be changed without having to replace the fretboard.

I picked up Dan Erlewine's Guitar Repair Guide... He's using a method of glueing the frets in and writes that they may be easily pulled out again after heating them a bit.
This method seems quite good in terms of reducing damage done to the fretboard wood.
Do you agree to that?

No. That is not what Dan is saying. For a while in the '70's some luthiers were performing epoxy fret jobs. They would either widen the slot or, more frequently, shave the barbs off the fret tang. The slots would be filled with epoxy and the fret, which had already been bent to radius, was pressed in by hand. Research into this method found that the epoxy was not as hard as the fingerboard material. That means that the fingerboard stiffness was compromised. Since fingerboard stiffness determines to a great degree how straight a neck can be made under tension most technicians agreed that this was a questionable method.

Dan advocates using super glue to augment the holding power of the fret barbs. Heating the fret will release the super glue bond. Since the fret barbs are still intact this method does not significantly reduce fingerboard chipping when the frets are removed. Most techs have a bottle of super glue on the bench when they are removing the frets so they can glue the chips back in before moving to the next fret. It is not a big deal.

[Santraginus]

Originally Posted by 202dy

No. That is not what Dan is saying. For a while in the '70's some luthiers were performing epoxy fret jobs. They would either widen the slot or, more frequently, shave the barbs off the fret tang. The slots would be filled with epoxy and the fret, which had already been bent to radius, was pressed in by hand. Research into this method found that the epoxy was not as hard as the fingerboard material. That means that the fingerboard stiffness was compromised. Since fingerboard stiffness determines to a great degree how straight a neck can be made under tension most technicians agreed that this was a questionable method.

Dan advocates using super glue to augment the holding power of the fret barbs. Heating the fret will release the super glue bond. Since the fret barbs are still intact this method does not significantly reduce fingerboard chipping when the frets are removed. Most techs have a bottle of super glue on the bench when they are removing the frets so they can glue the chips back in before moving to the next fret. It is not a big deal.

Thanks - so I must have gotten Dan's message wrong.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Santraginus

Thanks - so I must have gotten Dan's message wrong.

Not really. Like so many subjects and practices in Luthiery fretwork seems to be misunderstood because there are many different techniques. There are many different opinions as to what is the best way to handle a problem. Most folks are not familiar with some of the tooling that is used in the practice. All of this makes a simple mechanical procedure appear as if it is shrouded in arcane techniques akin to voo doo. In this particular case, Dan says that the glue releases easily. That is true. But he also states that the glue is simply "extra insurance". Remember, most factories do not glue the frets in. Certainly it takes longer and utilizes more resources and is therefore more expensive. But the reality is that frets have been hammered and pressed for many decades and have given millions of hours of service with nary a drop of glue applied to the slots.

The facts are the techs use glue to repair a problem like a popped fret end or a center hump. And one off or custom builders may use glue for "extra insurance" or because they like the idea that the glue fills up the air spaces and creates a more solid, monolithic structure. Sometimes they claim a sonic improvement results from the technique. There advertising blurb will naturally reflect their opinions. And that is o.k. Whatever the claims, the bald faced fact is that production builders like Fender, Gibson, Martin, Taylor, and the like do not do it. All of this is compounded by the lack of access to good reference works on the subject by almost every lay person who has an opinion on the subject. And for those cherished few who actually take the time to do the research, such as yourself, it is easy to become lost in all of the jargon and techniques.

It makes sense as to why there is so much confusion about guitars and their mechanics among players.

[Santraginus]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Not really. Like so many subjects and practices in Luthiery fretwork seems to be misunderstood because there are many different techniques. There are many different opinions as to what is the best way to handle a problem. Most folks are not familiar with some of the tooling that is used in the practice. All of this makes a simple mechanical procedure appear as if it is shrouded in arcane techniques akin to voo doo. In this particular case, Dan says that the glue releases easily. That is true. But he also states that the glue is simply "extra insurance". Remember, most factories do not glue the frets in. Certainly it takes longer and utilizes more resources and is therefore more expensive. But the reality is that frets have been hammered and pressed for many decades and have given millions of hours of service with nary a drop of glue applied to the slots.

The facts are the techs use glue to repair a problem like a popped fret end or a center hump. And one off or custom builders may use glue for "extra insurance" or because they like the idea that the glue fills up the air spaces and creates a more solid, monolithic structure. Sometimes they claim a sonic improvement results from the technique. There advertising blurb will naturally reflect their opinions. And that is o.k. Whatever the claims, the bald faced fact is that production builders like Fender, Gibson, Martin, Taylor, and the like do not do it. All of this is compounded by the lack of access to good reference works on the subject by almost every lay person who has an opinion on the subject. And for those cherished few who actually take the time to do the research, such as yourself, it is easy to become lost in all of the jargon and techniques.

It makes sense as to why there is so much confusion about guitars and their mechanics among players.

I agree. Since I love woodworking and all things related, I am very interested in the mechanical aspects of basses, maintenance and so forth. I found that quite often, common sense is most of what I need to do things that are considered difficult. E.g. I used a flat sharpening stone (water stone) for fret levelling - and since I made sure that the stone's surface was indeed perfectly even (as well as the neck set perfectly straight), the work turned out very acceptable.
Regarding fret work: I trust all you repair-wizzards more than I trust the practices of mass-produktion-companies, because you are usually confronted with the long-term issues of production basses. And you have the advantage of adding practical experience to common sense - which is why I profit so much from reading through the posts in this forum!