How scratch-free do i need to make a body to stain?

[enim]

the title kinda says it. How scratch-free must the body of my bass be (from sanding and such) to get a good result from staining.

Right now, theres nothing head on, and you have to have it t the right angle, looking with the body to see the scratches in it.

[Son of Magni]

When you put finish on it any scratches will be 50 times more obvious. So you really have to get rid of them all...

[enim]

Bummer.

I had a bad piece of 60-grit, it had some really big pieces of grit in it. Any hints on getting those out?

[62bass]

If it's bare wood, and it should be if you're going to stain, then I ususally sand to 220 grit before staining. Some very close grained woods like maple won't take much stain, at least the pigment type stains, if it's that smooth because there's nowhere for the stain to lodge. Then 180 is usually about right.

Dye stains are different because the colour actually soaks into the wood and you can sand to 220 or higher, although anything beyond that doesn't have any benefits.

Make sure you sand in the direction of the grain. Cross grain scratches show up badly.

If you want to get an idea of how good your sanding is, wipe some paint thinner on the wood and, while it's still wet, you'll see any defects magnified. Then you can fix those spots up. The paint thinner will evaporate in a couple of minutes.

[62bass]

Originally Posted by enim

Bummer.

I had a bad piece of 60-grit, it had some really big pieces of grit in it. Any hints on getting those out?

You'll have to go back to about 80 grit and sand, then 120, then 180, then 220. Wipe off all the dust and any sandpaper grit, before progressing to the next higher grit.

Don't buy cheap sandpaper.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Son of Magni

When you put finish on it any scratches will be 50 times more obvious. So you really have to get rid of them all...

^^

The sanding must be flawless. If stain is used the pigments will tend to lodge in the irregularities in the surface. That means both grain and scratches, with the same effect. If metal is polished, any scratches will show. Think of sanding as polishing the wood.

[Jim Breece]

Wet it down. You'll almost certainly see stuff you couldn't see dry that will show up even worse under stain and whatever finish. The stain and finish don't hide, they accentuate. Keep going until it's immaculate when you run a moist cloth over it. If you're going for a nice even look with the stain you'll never be able to get good results spot sanding scratches after you get the stain on. Kill yourself on the prep now and you'll like yourself much better after.

[enim]

Thank you guys so much.

I figured out that the sandpaper i was using, my mom picked up off the floor, where it became contaimnated.

The paint thinner trick is fantastic. I ended up going to 60-100-150-200-320, and im going to do 400 later. It seems very nice now.

[62bass]

Originally Posted by enim

Thank you guys so much.

I figured out that the sandpaper i was using, my mom picked up off the floor, where it became contaimnated.

The paint thinner trick is fantastic. I ended up going to 60-100-150-200-320, and im going to do 400 later. It seems very nice now.

Well, 400 is a bit overkill and won't make a difference in looks or feel once you have a couple of coats of finish over the stain. But if the body is too smooth and it's a very close grained wood like maple, pigment type stains won't stain as darkly because there's no place for the pigment to lodge. Dye stains are different and will work better. However they're harder to find. Almost all the easily available stains are pigment stains.

[enim]

Where can i get dye stains? and whats the difference in apperance?

[62bass]

Originally Posted by enim

Where can i get dye stains? and whats the difference in apperance?

I get dye stain from Lee Valley Tools, but I'm in Canada. Stewart Mcdonald sells them mail order. A couple other companies too. The TransTint dyes are good. They're liquid in concentrated form and you thin them with water to the right shade or intensity. Some of the dye stains are alcohol based, some water. Water is a bit easier to work with because alcohol dries very fast.

The advantage is they don't hide the grain the way pigment stains do and the colours can be a lot more intense under a clear finish. Pigment stains sit on the surface and on some woods with less than prominent grain, like alder, can obscure the grain. The dyes go into the wood because the dye particles are actually dissolved in water or alcohol and are very tiny. You can buy the dyes in powdered form and mix up your own custom colours by buying the primary colours. Or they come in various wood tones. Or you can buy them already dissolved in water or alcohol ready for thinning. I prefer them for most things. But the gel type pigment stains are easy to work with and with careful application give a nice result.

[Turnaround]

Originally Posted by 202dy

^^

The sanding must be flawless. If stain is used the pigments will tend to lodge in the irregularities in the surface.

That's one reason to use a dye rather than a pigment. Still and all, it's always best to get as close to a flawless surface as possible.

[enim]

These dye stains are sounding more and more attractive. However, if i dont like it/mess it up, I dont have the opportunity to remove it, do i?

[62bass]

Originally Posted by enim

These dye stains are sounding more and more attractive. However, if i dont like it/mess it up, I dont have the opportunity to remove it, do i?

Not easily once it's dried. While still wet you can wipe it off almost completely with the appropriate thinner. Then sanding to remove the remainder.

I blew it once on a piece I was finishing with brush on lacquer. I removed the lacquer with stripper and while i was cleaning off the final residue with lacquer thinner I managed to pull out a lot of the water based stain. The rest sanded out fairly easily. I wouldn't count on that always working though. The oil based pigment stains can be hard to remove also. A lot dpends on the grain of the wood.

I'm in the process of stripping the original lacquer finish on my window frames and sills. The sills have a different grain pattern from the rest of the frame although it seems to be the same wood. The sills are edge grain and the stain is really in there. I don't know if I'll ever get it all out and I've been doing a lot of sanding with 60 grit by hand and with a good detail sander. Luckily it won't matter because the new stain will be the same colour as the original and it's fairly dark so it should all blend in.

It would help to know what species of wood it is you're trying to stain. Dye stains aren't always the best choice. And sometimes you combine dye staining with pigment, in particular, when evening out a stain or on woods that stain blotchy, such as oak and cherry.

[enim]

I want to say its ash, or basswood. Something light and cheapish/common. Its an older Cort bass (i think).

Lookin at the warmoth woods, it may be maple, but i doubt it, as its too light.

Its got a straight, light grain, with a very light overall color (pictures can be here in a few moments).

Heres another problem: Its a two piece body, and the upper half (from about the neckline up) is a different grain. A drastically different grain. Will a stain even look right at all with this?

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by enim

I want to say its ash, or basswood. Something light and cheapish/common. Its an older Cort bass (i think).

Lookin at the warmoth woods, it may be maple, but i doubt it, as its too light.

Its got a straight, light grain, with a very light overall color (pictures can be here in a few moments).

Heres another problem: Its a two piece body, and the upper half (from about the neckline up) is a different grain. A drastically different grain. Will a stain even look right at all with this?

The different grain patterns will stand out like a sore thumb if you finish it with a stain.

That type of body almost has to be painted with an opaque color to hide the grain mismatch.

The good part may be that you wont have to sand much more. A couple or three coats of primer, sanded between coats should fill any imperfections.

[enim]

Gah, i was kind of looking foward to having another natural-finish bass.

What can i use thats going to give a good finish in all aresol cans?

Edit: This is the bass, the darker pictures, the wood was moistened so you could see it better

[62bass]

That's not all that bad to handle. Use a gel stain, one of the pigment types such as Minwax. Varathane makes them as well as Woodkote. I usually use Woodkote but the others work well too. Pick a colour you like, something not too dark though. Maybe a Danish Walnut. When your sanding is perfect and you've wiped off all the dust, use a piece of cotton cloth or shop towel to wipe on a thin coat of stain all over the bass. Don't goop it on thick. Practice on a piece of scrap wood first. As soon as you get the stain on, wipe off that dark section of body with a clean cloth removing as much stain as you can. Then wait 5 minutes and wipe the whole bass off evenly. If you lucked out the first time the dark area will be a little darker and the light area a little darker and the two should be a close match. If one is too dark you can remove some of the stain with a clean cloth wetted with paint thinner if you do it before the stain dries.

Give it overnight to harden once you've got it where you like it. You can add a little bit of stain while it's still wet to even things out, but do it sparingly.

Once it's dried overnight, give it a wipe with paint thinner to see how it'll look with a clear finish. If it's okay you can go on to the clear finish as previously described (I think it's in this thread. If not, ask) I'd use Minwax Wipe On Poly in gloss. About 6 coats, sanding very, very lightly after each 2 coats with 400 grit wet or dry paper.

If it still needs it you can do a little bit of shading once the first coat of stain has dried but don't add too much and wipe it off quickly. You don't want it to build up and hide the grain and look like paint.

[enim]

Well, 62bass, id like to thank you so much for you help. I acthually chose to go with a duplicolor paint, after much consideration, becuase i determined that the wood didnt really have as much grain as i would like.

I chose the Mirage product from duplicolor, its a pretty cool color-shifting paint. I've just put on 4 coats of their sandable primer, im going to go sand that with 400, and then 600 grit paper, before putting on the mirage base coat.

[62bass]

Originally Posted by enim

Well, 62bass, id like to thank you so much for you help. I acthually chose to go with a duplicolor paint, after much consideration, becuase i determined that the wood didnt really have as much grain as i would like.

I chose the Mirage product from duplicolor, its a pretty cool color-shifting paint. I've just put on 4 coats of their sandable primer, im going to go sand that with 400, and then 600 grit paper, before putting on the mirage base coat.

Damn, I was looking forward to seeing how it turned out with stain.

Well, I'm sure the paint will look splendid. Just take your time, keep everything dust free and follow the instructions and it should turn out fine. When you're done, post a couple pictures.