how to set up intonation on a fretless?

[denchiq]

I'm new to fretless so I have this noob question. Mine is a lined fretless, 22 fret. The neck is to die for. It is a Lakland after all. But.
I noticed that, while playing, I have to finger above the position lines at the lowest frets (in other words, the closer is a line to the headstock - the closer to the headstock you have to finger), and vice versa. At the 12th fret, I press very close to the position line, and above the 15th fret, I need to finger on the line.
I'm not sure that is what supposed to be.
How do I check and set the intonation? Could do it easily on a fretted bass but the fretless confuses me. A pal of mine says I need to use a ruler or position a fret wire on the 12th position line but I think that is too much of approximation
No luthier locally I can take a bass to.

Thanks,
Denis

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by denchiq

I'm new to fretless so I have this noob question. Mine is a lined fretless, 22 fret. The neck is to die for. It is a Lakland after all. But.
I noticed that, while playing, I have to finger above the position lines at the lowest frets (in other words, the closer is a line to the headstock - the closer to the headstock you have to finger), and vice versa. At the 12th fret, I press very close to the position line, and above the 15th fret, I need to finger on the line.
I'm not sure that is what supposed to be.
How do I check and set the intonation? Could do it easily on a fretted bass but the fretless confuses me. A pal of mine says I need to use a ruler or position a fret wire on the 12th position line but I think that is too much of approximation
No luthier locally I can take a bass to.

Thanks,
Denis

Hi,

Since you have a lined fretless, intonate the bass to match the lines, as they are likely positioned well. Your friend's suggestion of a ruler on the 12th fret is fine. Intonate the bass the same way you would intonate a fretted bass, using the 12th fret harmonic and your ruler or capo on the 12th line. A finger is too round and mushy to get it precise.

After that, you play in tune by listening and playing in tune according to what you hear. The lines are just rough guides, which are now decently accurate because of the above procedure.

[Pilgrim]

Just remember, on a fretless the intonation is no better than the player. Regardless of how accurately the intonation is set, your finger placement determines the accuracy of the note.

Either a measurement or using a finger ON the line would work. Either one is more accurate than you will be when playing.

[Jools4001]

If you set up the intonation with a ruler at the 12th fret, that is pretty much where the middle of your finger would be. If you do this, you will have to play past the line in the lower positions.

Some guy called Gary Willis explains it all here I've heard he's quite handy on fretless

[denchiq]

thanks.
I understand that fingering is the most crucial point. I just want intonation to be as close to perfect as possible so that my finger application is not wrong from the start.

Thanks for the Gary guy. He seems to know what he is talking about

[Lo-E]

As Longfinger and Jools4001 said, set it to the 12th position. You want to match the stopped note at the 12th position line to the 12th position harmonic. Where you place your finger, exactly, can vary from player to player so set it to your own playing style.

You can use a ruler if you like, simply doubling the distance to the 12th position line and adding a little less than an 8th inch for the G and a little more than an 8th inch for the E. That will get you in the ballpark and you can fine-tune from there. Keep in mind that the angle of the saddles is often less on a fretless than on a fretted bass because the strings aren't being stretched as much as they are stopped so if it looks much "flatter" than your fretted, it's OK.

Most importantly, trust your ears.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by denchiq

I noticed that, while playing, I have to finger above the position lines at the lowest frets (in other words, the closer is a line to the headstock - the closer to the headstock you have to finger), and vice versa. At the 12th fret, I press very close to the position line, and above the 15th fret, I need to finger on the line.

how low are the strings at the nut?

on a good fretless that's set up right, there should be almost no gap at all. it should be just as easy to press at the first "fret" as it is to press down at the second while holding down the first.

[Philbiker]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Just remember, on a fretless the intonation is no better than the player. Regardless of how accurately the intonation is set, your finger placement determines the accuracy of the note.

IME it is absolutely critical to have the string intonation set up at the bridge on a fretless bass. While it is true that the intonation is up to the player, if the natural string intonation of the bass is off, there's no way the player can get it right when hitting the "right" location. Or worse, you can get your "muscle memory" set to the wrong note locations because you learned fretless intonation on a poorly intoned instrument.

[denchiq]

Originally Posted by walterw

how low are the strings at the nut?

on a good fretless that's set up right, there should be almost no gap at all. it should be just as easy to press at the first "fret" as it is to press down at the second while holding down the first.

I do not know the factory specs for a fretless nor have a measurement tool by me. It's a new (b-stock) Lakland that I got from the factory so I believe it is done right. I can say the strings are a tad lower than on the fretted 55-94
I am afraid I didn't understand the part about fretting right. I just tried that - there is certainly a difference in tension and height when I press at the 2nd position while holding down the 1st compared to that of talen at the 2nd and open. But it is as easy to press at the 1st as to press at the 2nd while holding down at the 1st - but why?

[denchiq]

Originally Posted by Philbiker

IME it is absolutely critical to have the string intonation set up at the bridge on a fretless bass. While it is true that the intonation is up to the player, if the natural string intonation of the bass is off, there's no way the player can get it right when hitting the "right" location. Or worse, you can get your "muscle memory" set to the wrong note locations because you learned fretless intonation on a poorly intoned instrument.

I second that. That's what I was thinking about in the first place


Now I adjusted the intonation at the 12th position (which I still can't internally agree too, the higher strings being shorter than the lower strings, which means the center points MUST be at different distance from the saddles). It brings new sensations that I need a few days to live up to. I feel like at is easier to finger in the lower register now. The G note on the E string (15th fret) now seems to be off, compared to others. I'll see to that

Thanks to everyone! Speciall thanks for the Gary Willis link. The visual aid was vital

[SurferJoe46]

Originally Posted by Philbiker

Or worse, you can get your "muscle memory" set to the wrong note locations because you learned fretless intonation on a poorly intoned instrument.

I am not convinced about 'muscle memory' 'cause if it was real, there'd be dead people walking all over the place and playing a few rounds of golf or better yet - drinking beer.

Golf is a much more intense and another false 'muscle-memory' game than even playing a musical instrument. It requires intense memory to adjust to all the various lies that a ball can get into and the player has to be consistent all the time or he never gets to play Tiger.

In bass playing, we quickly form an opinion that we are either sharp or flat or close enough - and besides the next note is coming up and we can't wait - type/scene!

What I believe is that a muscle 'fires' an informational neuro-blast to the brain that tells it it's location and tension and then the brain says: "OK - stop there" if the ears and finger tips agree.

Muscle memory? I think not. Good neural feedback? Yup!

[Scottgun]

I'm not going to go down the muscle memory rabbit trail, but as others said, the intonations is important because it will be annoying when you bar you finger across a string and get something other than an in-tune 4th or 5th. The Gary Willis site someone linked is the best explanation/illustration of bass setup I've ever seen. Just wish he'd offer that bass unlined.

[denchiq]

well mine is lined and that fingering not-really-on-the-line kept me thinking...

[Chasarms]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

I am not convinced about 'muscle memory' 'cause if it was real, there'd be dead people walking all over the place and playing a few rounds of golf or better yet - drinking beer.
. . . Muscle memory? I think not. Good neural feedback? Yup!

So then, how does a double bassist jump from half position to thumb position and land an octave C on the A string DEAD COLD and perfectly intonated?

How do you explain a concert pianist who picks up his right hand from well below middle C and drops it dead on in the highest register already formed in the right chord form without so much as taking a glimpse?

There has to be something to muscle memory.

[SurferJoe46]

When muscles get gray matter or fire their own synapse, then I'll buy it. Memory requires thought processes to reassess a situation and do so correctly - every time; that's a job for the brain.

It's a trained response, that's all. Every muscle constantly fires a neural value to the brain and the brain recognizes those micro-voltages as the learned correct, multiply-established values and then halts further muscular contractions.

If there was such a thing as muscle memory, don't you think it would be a lot easier for paraplegics to walk again - they wouldn't need the brain at all!

No-body would be bed ridden after severing their spinal cord either! Scoop out their brain and they'd hold a discussion on 'J verses P basses'.

Muscles have absolutely NO cognitive capacity; they cannot even maintain 10% homeostatic or tetanic (see:endocytotic electro-stimulus) activity without the brain telling them to.

Left on their own they (muscles) are devoid of activity except by external motivation or some temporary, small fits of spasmodic activity when they lose partial connection to the brain. (e.g. The brain is the only controlling agency.)

A "Charley Horse" is one minor version of this scrambled muscular activity when the brain loses temporary (and minor) neural control or calls in too many intra-musclular fibrals via dendrile or synaptic-axial cross wiring, as it were.

You cannot tell me that a player of anything that requires precision can play while in the throes of knotted muscles or those left alone to their own motivation.

The heart however, IS the only muscular tissue that has any semblance of memory in a unique way, and it too will fail after a while when it's internal pacemaker dies.

Wishfully thinking that anyone has thinking (since memory requires cognitive skills and that's THINKING and assessing synaptic values to compare them to a known factor) muscles for position, placement or action is just plain voodoo logic and makes good science fiction.

[anonymous101511]

You would set it up just like you do for a fretted bass, forget about rulers and all that stuff. The key point is you must decide where you want to place your finger for a given note relative to the lines; do you want to place your finger right on the line, a little flat, etc., etc. Then tune to the 12th fret harmonic; finger where you decide is right for you and intonate accordingly. The rest is up to practice.

[JTE]

Duh- "muscle memory" never meant the memory resides in the muscle. It's a (admittedly inaccurate) description of the learning process of what your brain remembers when the muscles are in this position on this neck and you hear what you want to hear. Despite the physiologically incorrect implications of the name, what it describes is very real.

John

[ghiadub]

I think you are onto how to set up your bass.
But least you forget that those lines are part of scaled temperment.
The notes are not right on the frets on a fretted bass either.

read this: http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html

The Buzz Feiten tuning system attempts to make it a little better:
http://www.buzzfeiten.com/


Also, you can use a tuner to check yourself.

[Scottgun]

You would set it up just like you do for a fretted bass, forget about rulers and all that stuff.

While it is true that it is up to the player where he wants to put his fingers, I think we can agree that he should get it as consistent as possible across the strings. That is, unless he is going for a Dingwall fanned-fretting set up (if you are, good luck ), he's gonna want the C on the G string to be the same place he gets the G when goes to the D string. A ruler can help with that.

[Rick Auricchio]

Originally Posted by Philbiker

IME it is absolutely critical to have the string intonation set up at the bridge on a fretless bass. While it is true that the intonation is up to the player, if the natural string intonation of the bass is off, there's no way the player can get it right when hitting the "right" location.

+1

When I got my used Warwick Corvette fretless, I restrung and gave it a quick listen; the intonation sounded OK, but I didn't check with a tuner.

After a gig or two, I felt it was a difficult instrument to play with good intonation, but didn't know exactly why.

I checked the intonation with a tuner, and it was off on one string. Once I set it up properly, the bass was as easy to play as my other fretless ones.