Intonation on the E string...

[Peepaleep]

Hello Folks - I was hoping someone could help me with this...

I have a Frankenfretless that I really like, but it has some issues. It has a mid 80's P body and an early 90's Warmoth neck. Also, a BAII Bridge.

The intonation on my e-string is off. When I tune it to the harmonic above the octave and then "fret" the note, the "fretted" note is sharp. I've adjusted the saddle as far back as it can go. Any thoughts on this?

Also, the action is a little higher than I would like it but the saddle on the E-string is resting on the bridge plate. Also, the A and D strings "buzz" from where the 15th to 21st frets would be, despite the stings being a little higher off the fingerboard than I want them to be. The E and G strings do not have this buzzing issue.

I'm a noob when it comes to set up and repair, so please let me know if you think these are issues that I can correct myself. Thanks!

[202dy]

Given that the string height is not so high as to cause the string to pull sharp when fingered, the bridge is in the correct position, and that the string is stopped at the twelfth "fret", the problem is at the nut.

[Peepaleep]

202 - a couple of questions on your comments...

The E-string is indeed sharp when fingered at the octave, despite being in tune when the harmonic at the octave is played. Could this be a string height issue more than a bridge/saddle issue? Would I need to shim my neck to lower the strings, since the E string's saddle is resting on the bridge plate?

The nut is actually lose, I've just discovered. So I'm guess I should glue this in before making any other sorts of changes? It's an ebony fingerboard that extends above the nut, if that makes any difference. Thanks in advance.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Peepaleep

202 - a couple of questions on your comments...

The E-string is indeed sharp when fingered at the octave, despite being in tune when the harmonic at the octave is played. Could this be a string height issue more than a bridge/saddle issue? Would I need to shim my neck to lower the strings, since the E string's saddle is resting on the bridge plate?

Impossible to determine based on the data provided. Measure the string height at the octave and end of the fingerboard, bass and treble sides. Measure the relief. Post and someone will help.

The nut is actually lose, I've just discovered. So I'm guess I should glue this in before making any other sorts of changes? It's an ebony fingerboard that extends above the nut, if that makes any difference. Thanks in advance.

Stabilize the nut before doing anything else. Set the intonation and then take all the measurements.

The fingerboard, given that it is level, is not an issue.

[JLS]

Originally Posted by Peepaleep

Hello Folks - I was hoping someone could help me with this...

I have a Frankenfretless that I really like, but it has some issues. It has a mid 80's P body and an early 90's Warmoth neck. Also, a BAII Bridge.

The intonation on my e-string is off. When I tune it to the harmonic above the octave and then "fret" the note, the "fretted" note is sharp. I've adjusted the saddle as far back as it can go. Any thoughts on this?

Also, the action is a little higher than I would like it but the saddle on the E-string is resting on the bridge plate. Also, the A and D strings "buzz" from where the 15th to 21st frets would be, despite the stings being a little higher off the fingerboard than I want them to be. The E and G strings do not have this buzzing issue.

I'm a noob when it comes to set up and repair, so please let me know if you think these are issues that I can correct myself. Thanks!

Has the E string always been a problem, or did it happen when you changed strings?

You need to shim the neck pocket, to have the range of saddle height adjustment that you need.

The F15-21 buzzing, is a classic symptom of "ski Jump". You need to have the fingerboard worked on, and you'll need some fallaway in this area.

[Gort]

If the flip isn't too bad I've coped with that problem several times using a reverse taper shim plus a flat shim to bring the action down if required. Didn't need to mess with the fingerboard and they've held for years.

[JLS]

Originally Posted by Gort

If the flip isn't too bad I've coped with that problem several times using a reverse taper shim plus a flat shim to bring the action down if required. Didn't need to mess with the fingerboard and they've held for years.

Shims don't fix a ski jump. If the OP tilts the neck back w/a shim, to get the action down, the ski jump effect from F15-21, is going to be worse.

[Marty Forrer]

Fix the nut.
Shim the neck pocket to allow saddle height adjustment.
Try another E string. Sometimes an E string can be a dud, even if new.
If problem persists, give thought to moving the bridge south, just enough so your new screw holes allow a bit of wood between them and the old holes. This will afford more saddle movement fore and aft.

[Peepaleep]

Thanks Folks - I'll glue in the nut as soon as I get the chance (most likely tomorrow) and then I'll shim the (entire) neck pocket with an old playing card, right?

Would the string tension hold the nut in place or should I clamp it until it dries (overnight?)?

Should I try to adjust the neck at that point? The truss rod is only adjustable when the neck is off the bass. If I should adjust the truss rod, I assume 1/4 turn is enough, but in which direction? The neck seems ok now when I look down from the nut to the body (slight bow that is to the nut side of the octave).

Thanks for all the advice!

[Zooberwerx]

Re-glue the nut and...this is my favorite...

...did you set your witness points at the nut and bridge saddles? Failure to do so may result in abnormally high string height and wonky intonation. The E & B strings are most prone thanks to the increased diameter, stiffness, and overall resistance to bending.

Edit: Don't touch your truss rod until you've determined relief. Don't even consider shimming until you've straightened out the nut situation, adjusted the relief properly, set the witness points, adjusted string height, and re-checked the results. Take care of the aforementioned simple stuff first.

Riis

[Gort]

Originally Posted by JLS

Shims don't fix a ski jump. If the OP tilts the neck back w/a shim, to get the action down, the ski jump effect from F15-21, is going to be worse.

Did you miss the part where I said a reverse taper shim?

A reverse taper shim can help a ski jump quite a bit, I've done it for years.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Peepaleep

Thanks Folks - I'll glue in the nut as soon as I get the chance (most likely tomorrow) and then I'll shim the (entire) neck pocket with an old playing card, right?

Would the string tension hold the nut in place or should I clamp it until it dries (overnight?)?

Should I try to adjust the neck at that point? The truss rod is only adjustable when the neck is off the bass. If I should adjust the truss rod, I assume 1/4 turn is enough, but in which direction? The neck seems ok now when I look down from the nut to the body (slight bow that is to the nut side of the octave).

Thanks for all the advice!

String tension will do a find job of keeping the nut where it needs to be.

Next job is to record set up data and post. Without the data, no one can accurately venture a guess as to what may be wrong with the set up. Once the set up is correct if there is problem then-and only then-is it time to deduce what is causing said problem(s).

Truss rod nuts need to be turned until the neck relief is correct. There is no way to predict how much that will be. Might be a sixteenth of a revolution. Might be two full revolutions. All depends on the neck, how much relief it has now and how much it needs to play correctly. The caveat is that if the nut squeaks, stop.

[JLS]

Originally Posted by Gort

Did you miss the part where I said a reverse taper shim?

A reverse taper shim can help a ski jump quite a bit, I've done it for years.

No, and I didn't miss the part where the OP said that his saddles were already bottomed out, either.

[Gort]

Originally Posted by JLS

No, and I didn't miss the part where the OP said that his saddles were already bottomed out, either.

That's actually immaterial to the reverse taper shim solution since using the reverse taper shim will cause the action to be slightly higher anyway. Then all it requires is a setup. If the saddles are bottomed out and that's not acceptable to the user a flat shim can be installed in the neck pocket to raise the fingerboard and permit raising the saddles to get the proper action. I've used the reverse taper shim in combination with flat shim several times on '70s Fenders with a flip where the neck pocket is cut too deep (rare) or the neck heel is too shallow (less rare).

[JLS]

Originally Posted by Gort

That's actually immaterial to the reverse taper shim solution since using the reverse taper shim will cause the action to be slightly higher anyway. Then all it requires is a setup. If the saddles are bottomed out and that's not acceptable to the user a flat shim can be installed in the neck pocket to raise the fingerboard and permit raising the saddles to get the proper action. I've used the reverse taper shim in combination with flat shim several times on '70s Fenders with a flip where the neck pocket is cut too deep (rare) or the neck heel is too shallow (less rare).

This "solution", will require higher than optimum action, and doesn't fix the ski jump.

[Gort]

Originally Posted by JLS

This "solution", will require higher than optimum action, and doesn't fix the ski jump.

Not if it's set up properly. I never had a problem getting any action I wanted. Most of the effect of ski jump is taken out of the equation since it's now more parallel to the body, so it's not really necessary to fix it by cutting into the neck.

I used this solution on my '72 P bass and it was fine for me for over 8 years. The next owner was very grateful I didn't cut into the neck to fix the flip.

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by JLS

This "solution", will require higher than optimum action, and doesn't fix the ski jump.

I'll have to agree. A wonky neck (ski jump, S curve, twist, etc.) remains a wonky neck irrespective of any shim application. For that fact, a shim only serves to alter the relationship amongst 3 planes...neck, body, and strings.

As mentioned earlier, the introduction of a shim is a bit premature as the OP has not given us a full & comprehensive overview of his current set-up.

Riis

[Gort]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

I'll have to agree. A wonky neck (ski jump, S curve, twist, etc.) remains a wonky neck irrespective of any shim application. For that fact, a shim only serves to alter the relationship amongst 3 planes...neck, body, and strings.

Exactly, but for some necks it's a viable solution that returns an otherwise useless bass to normal function with absolutely no invasive surgery and is completely reversible.

[FunkMetalBass]

Originally Posted by Gort

Exactly, but for some necks it's a viable solution that returns an otherwise useless bass to normal function with absolutely no invasive surgery and is completely reversible.

How is a proper fret level considered "invasive" and not "mandatory"? Furthermore, why would you want to make it reversible?

[Gort]

Originally Posted by FunkMetalBass

How is a proper fret level considered "invasive" and not "mandatory"? Furthermore, why would you want to make it reversible?

A common method of fixing a ski slope neck involves shaving the fingerboard and maybe recutting fret slots. I've found the ski slope to be more common in older instruments. Carving the neck of a older instrument isn't something everyone wants to do if an alternative, less invasive process is available to preserve authenticity, original frets, etc.

Obviously there will likely be some necks that are too far gone and will require the fingerboard shaving, or even neck replacement.

Of the ski slopes I've seen I've avoided the more invasive procedures on all of them using the shim method.