Intonation issues with drop C# tuning

[fyrb69]

I've been playing in a drop C# tuning on both my MM Sterling and Ibanez SR800 for years now. I have a new tuner that exposes some issues. On the E string (tuned C#) the notes from frets 1 through 4 are all sharp. The rest of the bass is pretty true. I've had them looked at and set up by several different techs who all say the necks and intonation are great. I've read that tuning the E string flat can correct this problem... that's not an option as the open string will then be flat. This issue is problematic live as I sing and can hear the slight tonal difference between the bass and guitar. Any suggestions? Maybe Buzz Feiten?

Thanks, BR

[diechris]

Did you redo the intonation when you changed your tuning? You can't just down tune your bass and not redo the intonation.

[fyrb69]

my basses have been set up (including by musicman themselves) in the drop C# tuning. I was told maybe different mixed gauges of strings might work.

[MRuss]

maybe tun down a quarter tone or something, how often do you need the open C#?

[JFace]

A more radical idea would be to dress the frets to favor a more flat tuning in the first four positions. I would try a different string gauge first, that might do something.

[tommy gilstrap]

Get a five string.

[kyral210]

Get a five string.

+1

[diechris]

Originally Posted by tommy gilstrap

Get a five string.

even with a 5 string the tuning will be the same. the reason for down tuning isnt just to get a lower note option. most bands that use drop tuning ride their open low string like some bands ride their open E. simply having a 5 string tuned BEADG will not help.

[Ric5]

Get a 5 string or tune the 4 BEAD or DGCF.

I would think that when you detune it is taking stress off of the neck and it bows forward and then the nut is too high so that when you fret the string it goes sharp. This is one of the reasons I am not a fan of detuning.

[Gasman]

Are you sure the intonation is right? A quick way to check is hit the C# string harmonic at the 12th fret. Make sure it reads C# on the tuner, then fret the 12th string. If the pitch changes, then the intonation is not correct and a saddle length adjustment is needed.

[TheVoiceless]

I had the same problem while tracking in the studio. We tried all we could to try and get it super close. I was using a 5 string so I ended up transposing my parts so I was playing on the low 5th string. Now I play on a four string. And I find it really depends on how you hold the string/and gauge is important. Not sure if you want to use a 100. or a 105. I would try both. Also you will need a set up. The bridge saddle will need to be all the way back. I would go to someone that is familiar with these lower tunings.

Good luck

[john turner]

sounds to me like you need to file your nut down some.

[Lakland55]

I have used my MM Stingray in that same tuning...I can say without the proper set up and heavier string gauge to compensate, the neck maybe bowing as a result.

So I would do is send it back to your tech (or do it yourself) and re-intonate the bridge and restring the bass using a heavier gauge string 50 - 115. Also make sure that the heavier gauge C# string fits in the nut properly.

Do NOT sand the nut down to make room for it. Filing the nut will mean that you may have to permanently use a heavier gauge string on that bass. If you later choose to set up that bass again with a lighter gauge string the top string will buzz in that first or second fret position (which happens to many bassists who tune down and they react by adjusting the neck and bowing it to get that top string from buzzing).

[Mushroo]

So you're saying the intonation is sharp from frets 1-4, then it's good on frets 5 and above? Sounds to me like your action is too high at the first 4 frets, meaning you have to bend the string sharp to fret it. Did you change to heavier strings, or are you detuning your regular EADG strings? Have you experimented with different brands/types of strings?

Anyways, I'm sure you know this, but intonation is an art, not a science. It's physically impossible to have every fret on every string perfectly intonated. You have to compromise so that every note is "close enough."

[lousybassplayer]

Originally Posted by john turner

sounds to me like you need to file your nut down some.

+1

[BadB]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

So you're saying the intonation is sharp from frets 1-4, then it's good on frets 5 and above? Sounds to me like your action is too high at the first 4 frets, meaning you have to bend the string sharp to fret it. Did you change to heavier strings, or are you detuning your regular EADG strings? Have you experimented with different brands/types of strings?

Anyways, I'm sure you know this, but intonation is an art, not a science. It's physically impossible to have every fret on every string perfectly intonated. You have to compromise so that every note is "close enough."

+1 to that. As your ear has developed, you have become more aware of your basses intonation. De-tuning regular strings loosens up the tension to a point that makes it very easy to bend the string while fretting the note. If your basses are always set with that tuning, it would make sense to set it up appropriately (ie:nut, intonation, relief, etc.)

It sounds as though it bothers you enough to where it'd probably be worth having the Buzz Feiten modification. It is a notable (harhar) difference. Novax fanned frets do it better.

[john turner]

Originally Posted by Lakland55

Do NOT sand the nut down to make room for it. Filing the nut will mean that you may have to permanently use a heavier gauge string on that bass. If you later choose to set up that bass again with a lighter gauge string the top string will buzz in that first or second fret position (which happens to many bassists who tune down and they react by adjusting the neck and bowing it to get that top string from buzzing).

there's -no- amount of bridge adjustment that is going to compensate for a nut slot that's cut too high.

if the string is not sitting properly in the nut, it will be too high and will -never- intonate properly on the lowest frets, regardless of where your bridge intonation is set.

replacing a nut is not a difficult proceedure, nor is it that uncommon a practice among folks who use multiple tunings.

[neurotictim]

Originally Posted by john turner

replacing a nut is not a difficult proceedure, nor is it that uncommon a practice among folks who use multiple tunings.

+1

I bought and modded the crap out of an SX jazz for the purpose of playing in an alternate tuning. Nut, bridge, all of it was changed and set up specifically for the heavier strings and the lowered tuning.

World of difference between the before and after, even just from changing the nut and bridge.

[Alcron]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

So you're saying the intonation is sharp from frets 1-4, then it's good on frets 5 and above? Sounds to me like your action is too high at the first 4 frets, meaning you have to bend the string sharp to fret it. Did you change to heavier strings, or are you detuning your regular EADG strings? Have you experimented with different brands/types of strings?"

I had the exact same problem on mine except the other way - tuned EADG, F to Ab on the E string were flat. The rest of the fretboard was spot on. I changed the strings from a .100 set to .105, adjusted the truss rod accordingly and now the whole bass is spot on. Probably could have just adjusted the rod with the .100's but it never did bother me that much and I was switching from rounds to half-rounds for ***** and giggles.

Also, not sure the gauge you're using but I'd use a damn heavy one for C# tuning since it's about 2/3 the tension on the neck using the same gauge from E to C#. A .110 gauge would have about the same tension at C# that the super light .95 has at E.

(http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf)