Intonation problems (E-string) on my P-bass.

[Oratorio]

Hi gang!

Recently I've been fiddling around with the intonation on my Fender American Vintage RI '62 P-bass. Thing is, the E-string was never "perfectly" in tune (I say "perfectly" because I know at that frequency it's hard for anything to be really perfect) so I tried moving the saddles back and forth, following videos and reading tips on how to do it. Thing is, I seem to have just made it worse. Everytime I fret anywhere on the E-string, it sounds horrible. I've tried adjusting it but it doesn't seem to becoming any better. I can't really put it to service because of this, either.

Does anyone have any tips? I would very glad for any input ..

[MadMan118]

Not to come off as a bit mean but it appears that you've been fiddling around with some thing you dint fully understand the concept of. The way i adjust innotation on my basses its that i play the 12th fret harmonic and then the 12th fretted note. If you find this difficult rather than making the problem worse take it in to a repair tech

[Oratorio]

Hey, I understand where you're coming from. I do understand the concept of it - I just made some mistakes I guess. What I did was playing the 12th fret harmonic, then fretting the 12th. I saw that the pitch was too high, and adjusted the bridge thereafter. But no change was really made, so I tried again, and again, and now the whole string is just sour. Where did I go wrong?

[Solarmist]

Tune the bass with the tuner -then check the 12th fret note with the 12th fret harmonic. If the fretted note is sharp of the harmonic - move the saddle back. If the fretted note is flat of the harmonic - move the saddle forward.

[Oratorio]

Originally Posted by Solarmist

Tune the bass with the tuner -then check the 12th fret note with the 12th fret harmonic. If the fretted note is sharp of the harmonic - move the saddle back. If the fretted note is flat of the harmonic - move the saddle forward.

I tried doing this again now, and it just seems that I have to move the saddle aaall the way back for it to get anywhere close. Is the screw supposed to stick out when you turn it back?

Edit: Wow, I'm really horrible at this. But I want to understand what I'm wrong. The two saddle-pieces of the bridge fell apart at the E-string because I loosened it so much it fell off. I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to have to take the saddle all the way back for it to become in tune? What am I doing wrong here? The neck isn't warped, and the other strings are fine.

[The Insane]

As far as I understand you turned the screw counter-clockwise to move the saddle back which made the screw stick out. This are two bad mistakes:
first, you have to turn CLOCKWISE to pull the saddle back (lengthen the string). Turning counter-clockwise will shorten the string and bring the saddle away from the bridge.
second, if the screw sticks out you aren't moving the saddle, because the string tension keeps them in place. If you continue, you get the result as you postet (saddle falls apart). I would suggest loosening the strings when adjusting your intonation and keep an eye on the screw. It has to be flush with the metal/ should not move. Only the saddle should move when turning the screw, press it against the metal when adjusting.

Edit: Oh, sorry my fault. You have turned in the right direction, but watch out for the screw. If you can't get the intonation right, I would suggest changing strings. It's quite common for old strings (in my experience)

[fretlessman71]

As a general rule, the E string saddle usually ends up closer to the ball end of the string than the other saddles do. Sometimes by a lot. Is this what you're experiencing?

[rumblethump]

You don't mention how old the strings are. That would be my first guess. I had a set of Roto Sounds taper core go dead in a week. No amount of setting the intonation would help.
Also, when backing the screw off on the bridge you usually need to push on the screw head to get the saddles to go forward.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Oratorio

I tried doing this again now, and it just seems that I have to move the saddle aaall the way back for it to get anywhere close. Is the screw supposed to stick out when you turn it back?

Edit: Wow, I'm really horrible at this. But I want to understand what I'm wrong. The two saddle-pieces of the bridge fell apart at the E-string because I loosened it so much it fell off. I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to have to take the saddle all the way back for it to become in tune? What am I doing wrong here? The neck isn't warped, and the other strings are fine.

You are not horrible at working on your guitar. You just have not done it often enough. Confidence will come with experience.

Sometimes you have to adjust the saddle to the end of it's range. Is it "normal"? It's not seen as often as other saddle positions but it is not "abnormal". It's just the way it is.

There is no purpose to be served for adjusting intonation with the strings tuned down. That's just flailing around in the dark. Pluck the notes and twist the adjustment screws until it the pitches match or the note dies. Lather rinse repeat.

If the string will not intonate properly within the range of adjustment the problem is not at the saddle. Keep trying and let us know what happens.

[Oratorio]

Originally Posted by rumblethump

You don't mention how old the strings are. That would be my first guess. I had a set of Roto Sounds taper core go dead in a week. No amount of setting the intonation would help.
Also, when backing the screw off on the bridge you usually need to push on the screw head to get the saddles to go forward.

The strings are pretty old I guess, but no more than a month or two? Rotosound. But just to clarify - it's the saddles that are supposed to be moving, right? Is the screw supposed to stick out behind the bridge? It looks as though if you're not careful you could easily "pop" it back in so to speak.

[fretlessman71]

OH! Got it.

YES, you're supposed to "pop" that screw back in. It's supposed to act as a set screw, and when you turn it, the saddle is supposed to move back and forth ALONG the screw.

But if the screw is sticking out, my guess is that that E saddle will REALLY be in the wrong position. You may just screw it back in as far as it goes and keep going if you can (you'll see the saddle finally start to slide toward the ball end side of the bridge).

[Oratorio]

Thanks alot to everyone!! I finally understood it I really got an "aha" moment. Thanks alot for the explanations; everyone helped out! You're such great help, all of you!
Cheers!!

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Oratorio

The strings are pretty old I guess, but no more than a month or two? Rotosound.

Glad you solved it!

But FYI, two months is new strings, not old. "Old" for bass strings is probably two or three years or older. Although many of us regard strings of less then 2-3 years as new, and 10+ years as old.

[fretlessman71]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

But FYI, two months is new strings, not old. "Old" for bass strings is probably two or three years or older. Although many of us regard strings of less then 2-3 years as new, and 10+ years as old.

OTOH, two DAYS can be "old" for Rotosounds, they die so fast.

This won't change the way the bass is set up; really, the only reasons that old strings hinder good setups is if they're so old they won't maintain pitch, or there's so much fret wear underneath the string that you're not getting a good "true" note.

[Sevente]

Originally Posted by 202dy

There is no purpose to be served for adjusting intonation with the strings tuned down. That's just flailing around in the dark. Pluck the notes and twist the adjustment screws until it the pitches match or the note dies. Lather rinse repeat.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I consider this to be a bad idea.
I agree you need a reference point but adjusting the bridge saddles while the strings are under tension is going to place unessesary strain on the bridge and after a while could even damage the saddles, particularly with roundwounds, which would cause even more tuning/intonation problems down the track.
While it's a pain you should check the intonation, slacken off the string, make your adjustments, retune and check again, then repeat until it's all good.

[Solarmist]

Originally Posted by Oratorio

Thanks alot to everyone!! I finally understood it I really got an "aha" moment. Thanks alot for the explanations; everyone helped out! You're such great help, all of you!
Cheers!!

So did you get it where if you check it with a tuner the 12th fret note matches the 12th fret harmonic?

Remember; when you loosen the screw [CC] (shortening the scale) - you must physically move [push] it forward (toward nut) if the string is tight
And when you tighten the screw [C] (lengthening the scale) - it will pull the saddle back (towards bridge) as you go.

Now that you know how - check the other strings

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Sevente

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I consider this to be a bad idea.
I agree you need a reference point but adjusting the bridge saddles while the strings are under tension is going to place unessesary strain on the bridge and after a while could even damage the saddles, particularly with roundwounds, which would cause even more tuning/intonation problems down the track.
While it's a pain you should check the intonation, slacken off the string, make your adjustments, retune and check again, then repeat until it's all good.

Calibration is merely fine tuning the adjustments. The procedure is performed once all basic (gross) adjustments are made. No one would suggest turning off an engine while calibrating the fuel injection. Trial and error introduces variables and needless steps into the procedure. The engine is turned on and the calibration is performed to the machine. The calibration regimen is:



1. Check calibration
2. Perform calibration
3. Final check
4. Item back in service


How can someone fine tune adjustments if the adjustments are constantly changing? The answer is, with some great trouble and a lot of luck. When calibrating any machine it does not make sense to introduce additional variables into the equation. That will only make things more confusing. It also decreases accuracy because the method requires it to be hit-or-miss:


1. Check calibration
2. Pull machine out of adjustment (or turn off)
3. Perform calibration
4. Readjust machine (or turn on)
5. Check calibration
6. Lather rinse repeat



Setting intonation is simply calibrating a machine. The equipment does not get calibrated until it is brought into proper adjustment. Once adjusted to specifications, it is only then that calibration procedures begin. After that, the machine is never taken out of adjustment while performing the calibration routine because that introduces new and changing variables each time.



The same is true for guitars. Adjusting the truss rod, saddle height, and nut slot depth are gross adjustments made to the guitar. We refer to this as action. Once the action is adjusted there is only one variable and that is intonation. The intonation procedure is the same as any other calibration procedure:


1. Check intonation
2. Calibrate intonation
3. Final check
4. Guitar back in service.


Detuning to make adjustments makes for a cumbersome and time consuming procedure. It is just like making truss rod adjustments on original design Fender style necks. The design dictates that the neck must be either loosened and tilted out of the pocket or removed altogether to turn the truss rod nut.


1. Detune
2. Pull neck (Loosen bolts, tilt in pocket or remove)
3. Adjust truss rod
4. Replace neck
5. Retune
6. Check relief
7. Lather rinse repeat


The alternative is to make a modification to the guitar body. After making the adjustment, the guitar is reassembled and tuned to pitch. Then, and only then, can the relief be checked. Unfortunately, there is no way to adjust the truss rods on these guitars.

Detuning and retuning a guitar while calibrating intonation needlessly introduces the same set of variables into the procedure. The steps then mimic adjusting traditional Fender style truss rods.


1. Check intonation
2. Detune
3. Adjust
4. Retune
5. Check intonation
6. Lather, rinse, repeat

It just doesn’t make sense to add variables and more steps to a procedure. That is especially true if it decreases accuracy. Considering that it also increases the amount of time it takes to perform the procedure it is both wasteful of time and resources.


Bridge saddles are wear surfaces. But even so, a soft brass saddle will stand up to abrasion from round wound strings for many, many years. The saddle is a wear surface just like the brake pads on an automobile. Some wear is expected. When enough wear shows at the saddle it is simple to adjust the slot with a nut file. In extreme cases the saddle can be replaced.

There is nothing to be gained in tuning the strings down to adjust intonation.

[rumblethump]

"There is nothing to be gained in tuning the strings down to adjust intonation."

My experience has shown that with some bridges when adjusting the intonation, the pressure from strings at tuned tension makes it very hard to turn the screws without eventually stripping the screw head. I've never had any consistency problems retuning and intonating.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by rumblethump

"There is nothing to be gained in tuning the strings down to adjust intonation."

My experience has shown that with some bridges when adjusting the intonation, the pressure from strings at tuned tension makes it very hard to turn the screws without eventually stripping the screw head. I've never had any consistency problems retuning and intonating.

Unless the bridge and screws are of very poor quality, a good set of screwdrivers and fitting the proper sized driver tip to the screw will eliminate this problem.

[JLS]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Unless the bridge and screws are of very poor quality, a good set of screwdrivers and fitting the proper sized driver tip to the screw will eliminate this problem.

...pushing the saddle back with your thumb.