intonation/saddle issue

[bdkthunder]

I am having trouble getting the G and D strings to intonate properly on my 5-string epiphone tbird. They are still flat and the saddle is as far forward as it can go without the screw falling out.

My first thought is that maybe the bridge is installed too far back. Would this be the case or is there something else that would be causing this? In general, it seems all the saddles are very forward which is making me think the bridge is off.

The intonation is close enough that I can live with it but I would still prefer if I could get it exact.

Thanks for any help.

[Zooberwerx]

I'll assume that:

*relief is set correctly.
*string height is within spec.
*nut slots are properly cut.
*installed new strings.
*you've set your witness points at both the nut and bridge.

Riis

[bdkthunder]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

I'll assume that:

*relief is set correctly.
*string height is within spec.
*nut slots are properly cut.
*installed new strings.
*you've set your witness points at both the nut and bridge.

Riis

I haven't had a proper setup done on it but it has always felt fine to me to play it. Currently as it is:
-Relief is kinda low, about 0.004".
-String height is about 5/64 on D and 3/32 on G
-Not sure about the nut slots. I don't know what to inspect for it to be proper.
-Yes, it has new strings
-I don't know how exactly what a witness point is or how to set it.

I don't think any of it is out of the ordinary as I have other basses setup similarly (low relief and very low action) and they don't have this intonation problem.

Also, I've been trying to learn how to do setups on my own and want to learn so please don't just reply "get a proper setup" to fix it. I'd like to try to figure it out on my own with help from the internet.

[JLS]

Then research the stickies up top. Google, "witness point", or search for it on this forum.

[Bassbubble11]

It sounds like the strings are binding in the nut. Make sure the nut slotted properly. If it was me i would replace the nut. Seeing that its an epiphone we can assume the nut is crap.

[Jay2U]

Are the strings low enough on the tuning pegs? The lower they are the sharper the angle at the nut becomes, helping to create well defined witness points. Push the strings over the nut and the saddles to ensure they bend to the correct angle at these points. Of course strings should not be twisted, as this brings all sorts of problems.

[Bruce Johnson]

It sure sounds like the bridge is indeed installed too far back. If all of the saddles are too far forward, and the G and D saddles run out of travel, that's about all it can be. Not a real big deal. Unscrew it, plug the holes and drill new ones.

I've seen plenty of brand new instruments with bridges installed too far forward, too far back, and off center. No point whining about how or why this happens. Just fix it.

[bdkthunder]

I have checked the nut, slots seem fine. They are angled along the direction of the string towards the tuning pegs. I have set the witness points as well. The strings are not twisted. The problem still persists. I still think it is the position of the bridge.

While checking these, I have noticed that the strings do seem to have some kind of buzz sound when played open. Its not fret buzz. I think it sounds more like the strings are probably rattling in the nut and/or bridge. The sound seems to be coming from the whole string and seems dampened when I touch the string behind the nut. The B and E strings are most prominent but I sometimes hear it in the others too (D and G as well). Could this be the sign of a bad string? Seems less likely to me because almost all the strings do it and I doubt a whole set of strings would be bad, but you never know. They are D'Addario ProSteels. I am not sure if this buzzing is a sign of something that might be affecting the intonation problem (if it is not the bridge position) but it is yet another problem in the long list of things I've had wrong with this bass. I am quite disappointed in epiphone's quality.

[Rocky McDougall]

Having an action too low will cause problems with intonation. The stretch a string is subjected to when fretting is necessary to reach a proper note accuracy. In my opinion that low actions cause more problems than they cure.
Rocky

[96tbird]

Get a measuring tape or yardstick, etc. Measure distance from nut to 12th. Now measure from 12th to about the center of saddle travel. If they are equal the bridge position is fine.

Go to the nut. Push sideways on the strings right in the middle of the first fret space, the string should only "bend (pivot)" at the front edge of the nut. If it bends farther back in the slot, it needs adjustment. It will need to be filed lower on the tuner side so the string only contacts the fret board side at a very small point of the slot. My Tbird iv had this problem and five minutes with a file fixed it. Our Chinese friends don't seem to get that part of final finishing before packing.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Rocky McDougall

Having an action too low will cause problems with intonation. The stretch a string is subjected to when fretting is necessary to reach a proper note accuracy. In my opinion that low actions cause more problems than they cure.
Rocky

it's actually just the opposite; the lower the action, the less you have to compensate the saddles. that "string stretch" is something to be minimized whenever possible.

super low action does have its own set of issues, mostly about tone, sustain and buzzing, but intonation is not one of them.

[JLS]

Originally Posted by Rocky McDougall

Having an action too low will cause problems with intonation. The stretch a string is subjected to when fretting is necessary to reach a proper note accuracy. In my opinion that low actions cause more problems than they cure.
Rocky

?????

[Nev375]

Originally Posted by Rocky McDougall

Having an action too low will cause problems with intonation. The stretch a string is subjected to when fretting is necessary to reach a proper note accuracy. In my opinion that low actions cause more problems than they cure.
Rocky

Interesting theory. Of course, it's completely wrong, but it is quite interesting.

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by bdkthunder

I have checked the nut, slots seem fine. They are angled along the direction of the string towards the tuning pegs. I have set the witness points as well. The strings are not twisted. The problem still persists. I still think it is the position of the bridge.

While checking these, I have noticed that the strings do seem to have some kind of buzz sound when played open. Its not fret buzz. I think it sounds more like the strings are probably rattling in the nut and/or bridge. The sound seems to be coming from the whole string and seems dampened when I touch the string behind the nut. The B and E strings are most prominent but I sometimes hear it in the others too (D and G as well). Could this be the sign of a bad string? Seems less likely to me because almost all the strings do it and I doubt a whole set of strings would be bad, but you never know. They are D'Addario ProSteels. I am not sure if this buzzing is a sign of something that might be affecting the intonation problem (if it is not the bridge position) but it is yet another problem in the long list of things I've had wrong with this bass. I am quite disappointed in epiphone's quality.

Emphasis added. Given the description, the first things that come to mind are:

*Inadequate break angle at the nut and/or inadequate string wraps on the tuning posts.

*Poor string / slot contact, improperly cut slots (common).

*Lack of defined witness points...but you did address that.

You did mention your relief was ~.004 which may be a bit too optimistic for the given instrument. I would aim for something a little more realistic, say ~.012, as a starting point. Hey, I like low action as much as the next guy but I've noted in several cases that as one approaches "zero relief", the neck will all-too-frequently kick back into the dreaded "S" curve whereas fretboard region 1-5 will start to bow backwards...not good. Relaxing the truss rod a tad will oftentimes allow the fretboard to fall back into a more natural, playable profile.



Riis

[bdkthunder]

Thanks for all the help so far. I have taken some pictures that I hope will assist in diagnosing and solving these problems.

From what 96tbird said, I measured from the nut to 12th and 12th to bridge and it appears the centre of travel for the saddles is way beyond the 17" measured. Actually, all of the saddles are positioned beyond the 17" so I assume then that the bridge is in the wrong location. Awesome.

As for bending strings at the nut, I am not 100% sure as described how it should bend at the nut but when I do it, there is movement behind the nut for strings B, E, and A. I think I noticed, especially with the E, that the string would pivot in the slot in the opposite direction I am pressing (so if im pressing the string left in the fret space, the string pivots the the right in the slot). I am guessing this is what you mean so the nut slots are probably too wide and will need some work. I noticed if i pluck the string hard, all of them make this sorta buzz sound but the B and E are the worst so maybe all of the nut slots are too big and will need filing.

From what Zooberwerx said, I have taken a pictures of the headstock and bridge hoping to give a good idea of the break angles. The headstock is angled backwards and the tuning pegs are short so I'm not too sure if there's much room to improve on those. Again, the nut is probably causing the buzz issue.

So in general, I think the intonation problem is caused by the bridge being in an incorrect position and the buzzing is from bad slots in the nut.

[bdkthunder]

Headstock and bridge

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by bdkthunder

As for bending strings at the nut, I am not 100% sure as described how it should bend at the nut but when I do it, there is movement behind the nut for strings B, E, and A. I think I noticed, especially with the E, that the string would pivot in the slot in the opposite direction I am pressing (so if im pressing the string left in the fret space, the string pivots the the right in the slot). I am guessing this is what you mean so the nut slots are probably too wide and will need some work. I noticed if i pluck the string hard, all of them make this sorta buzz sound but the B and E are the worst so maybe all of the nut slots are too big and will need filing.

From what Zooberwerx said, I have taken a pictures of the headstock and bridge hoping to give a good idea of the break angles. The headstock is angled backwards and the tuning pegs are short so I'm not too sure if there's much room to improve on those. Again, the nut is probably causing the buzz issue.

Appears to be some confusion regarding witness points. Tune your bass, take your big ol' thumb, and mash the string firmly downwards towards the fingerboard just as the string leaves the nut. It's just that simple! No need to bend it left, right, or in any other strange manner. Same process holds true for the bridge.

Any way you can slide the string wraps closer to the tuning post base? The break angle looks okay but you do have room for an extra wrap or two on each post.

Do yourself a favor and concentrate on solving the buzz dilemma first. Once you do, there's a good chance the other problems (intonation, etc.) will take care of themselves.

BTW, did you re-check / re-set the relief?

Riis

[bdkthunder]

I was bending the strings sideways per 96tbird's advice for checking the nut slot width, unless I misinterpreted what he meant. I was not trying to set the witness point.

Originally Posted by 96tbird

Go to the nut. Push sideways on the strings right in the middle of the first fret space, the string should only "bend (pivot)" at the front edge of the nut. If it bends farther back in the slot, it needs adjustment. It will need to be filed lower on the tuner side so the string only contacts the fret board side at a very small point of the slot. My Tbird iv had this problem and five minutes with a file fixed it. Our Chinese friends don't seem to get that part of final finishing before packing.

And I did not yet re-check/adjust the relief.

[gidbass]

Originally Posted by Nev375

Interesting theory. Of course, it's completely wrong, but it is quite interesting.

Ha! I almost spit my drink out...

[96tbird]

Yes, what I'm saying I learned from a luthier blog or article. It is a check to see if the nut slot is properly angled down toward the tuner so the string only contacts the fretboard side of the nut at a small point: which is in fact the witness point, much like the saddle is a witness point.