Lack of relief on 1972 Fender P-Bass

[Balkan]

Hi -

I've been playing a 1972 Fender Precision Bass for the last year, and have generally been very happy with it. It's in great condition, the frets are in fantastic shape, and the tone is great, and I have been able to get pretty decent low action.

Recently, however, I have been having some setup problems, which basically boil down to the bass choking a bit on the G-string around the 7th fret unless I play with a super-light touch. I don't just mean a dead note, but actual buzzing choking of the kind you get when the action is way too low and the string is not getting clearance above the higher frets. Loosening the truss rod has not helped.

I took the bass to a respected guitar tech and he said that the problem is that the neck isn't getting relief across its whole length. There's no hump or anything, but the neck is super straight from the socket until around the 10th fret or so, and it only really gets relief from there to the first fret. He said this could be fixed by sanding down the affected portion of the neck to provide a little extra relief, but that would require a complete refret which he recommended against because he agreed the bass is in great condition, and the existing original frets are doing well. He also said that doing this could change the sound of the instrument.

So . . . the answer obviously is to raise the action until the choking goes away, which is basically fine. I can give exact measurements when I get home, but I am able to do this while leaving the bass basically playable. It just ends up that both the E-string and the G-String end up at about 1/8" action at the 12th fret, and I can't really get the G much lower. When I play down around the first 5 frets, the action and tone are great.

Given that the neck is a little funky. I'm trying to find out what my sweet spot is in terms of both relief and action. IE - on what fret should I be measuring relief, and how much relief should I give, before I start playing with the action? I would assume that for my bass the answer would not be the same as for a typical neck, correct? Is there anyone else whose had a similar issue and might be able to offer solutions? I'm thinking maybe of just taking it back to the tech and saying give this bass the best setup you can and then I can just start using that as my template for further adjustments.

I'm also using TI flats which are lower tension, so maybe a higher tension string would change things, but I do like these strings a lot!

Any thoughts and advice will be much appreciated.

[dmusic148]

Sounds like a version of the classic Fender 'rising tongue' problem. Unless it's really bad, and provided the frets have enough metal on them, a fret dress might fix it. There's really no way to answer your question without seeing it/measuring it first hand.
In my opinion, re-profiling the fingerboard and re-fretting will NOT change the tone at all.
Odd as it may sound, you may find that tightening the rod, and significantly raising the bridge saddles to compensate, works better. In other words, better to have the whole neck be relatively straight if possible, rather than just the upper portion.

[JTE]

OK, if the rod isn't working evenly over the entire length of the neck (that's rare, but it happens), then I'd start with a string with more tension. I used TI flats on a couple of my basses (still have a set in the string box somewhere), but I liked the GHS Precision Flats better for me. They do have more tension, wthout being the twangy bridge cables that Fender uses. That should pull the neck up a bit and allow you to get the action where you want it.

The TI's have a definite note to them, which I really liked. The GHS flats do as well (actually one bass has the Lakland branded version, but the GHS are only different by one thousandth of an inch on the E string, and the color of the silk). They seem to have a lot of what other people like about the TI (except the very low tension) but feel more like the strings I use on my other basses under my hand. Switching between the TI and the DR SUnbearms or DR HiBeams wasn't a huge feel difference, but enough that I went hunting for other strings.

jte

[JLS]

Originally Posted by Balkan

Hi -

I've been playing a 1972 Fender Precision Bass for the last year, and have generally been very happy with it. It's in great condition, the frets are in fantastic shape, and the tone is great, and I have been able to get pretty decent low action.

Recently, however, I have been having some setup problems, which basically boil down to the bass choking a bit on the G-string around the 7th fret unless I play with a super-light touch. I don't just mean a dead note, but actual buzzing choking of the kind you get when the action is way too low and the string is not getting clearance above the higher frets. Loosening the truss rod has not helped.

I took the bass to a respected guitar tech and he said that the problem is that the neck isn't getting relief across its whole length. There's no hump or anything, but the neck is super straight from the socket until around the 10th fret or so, and it only really gets relief from there to the first fret. He said this could be fixed by sanding down the affected portion of the neck to provide a little extra relief, but that would require a complete refret which he recommended against because he agreed the bass is in great condition, and the existing original frets are doing well. He also said that doing this could change the sound of the instrument.

So . . . the answer obviously is to raise the action until the choking goes away, which is basically fine. I can give exact measurements when I get home, but I am able to do this while leaving the bass basically playable. It just ends up that both the E-string and the G-String end up at about 1/8" action at the 12th fret, and I can't really get the G much lower. When I play down around the first 5 frets, the action and tone are great.

Given that the neck is a little funky. I'm trying to find out what my sweet spot is in terms of both relief and action. IE - on what fret should I be measuring relief, and how much relief should I give, before I start playing with the action? I would assume that for my bass the answer would not be the same as for a typical neck, correct? Is there anyone else whose had a similar issue and might be able to offer solutions? I'm thinking maybe of just taking it back to the tech and saying give this bass the best setup you can and then I can just start using that as my template for further adjustments.

I'm also using TI flats which are lower tension, so maybe a higher tension string would change things, but I do like these strings a lot!

Any thoughts and advice will be much appreciated.

Sounds like the common dead spot on Fender neck, usually C#, D, or D#. One note, live with it.

[202dy]

Given that the respected tech deserves the respect:

Performing a plane and refret a vintage instrument (or any other) for this problem should be a last resort. The first thing to try is to force the neck into relieve by using clamps and a beam.

1. Loosen the truss rod.
2. A beam is set on a block located at F7.
3. Clamps and cauls are applied at F1 and the neck body joint.
4. Tighten the truss rod nut until just snug

This will force the neck into a forward bow. Sometimes it takes a couple of tries to get it to hold. Sometimes it will take an application of heat to bend the neck and hold it.

Another idea that is less invasive is to try compression fretting. Frets with a narrow tang are installed in the trouble area allowing the neck to bend forward. Actually, compression fretting is the process of using frets with a larger tang to reduce relief in guitars that do not have a truss rod, like older Martins. So this method might be better referred to as "de"compression fretting.

[Steve Bennett]

I had the same problem with my '74 P and TI flats. I could completely loosen the truss rod nut and still had no relief. I just put higher-tension strings on it. Problem solved. It didn't bother me to do this, since I didn't like the TIs anyway.

[Balkan]

Thanks all for the advice. I took dmusic's tip and tightened the truss rod up some. It must have been out all the way, because I had turn it a good half turn before I even started to feel any tension.

In any event, I haven't touched the saddles yet (I want to let the neck sit for a while) but I'm already amazed at how this CBS-era P-bass (and an 8 pounder at that) seems to be giving me Marcus-Miller action without a buzzing on every single fret except the 7th on the G-string. Even that one wouldn't buzz if I had a super-light touch.

This makes me wonder whether a fret-dress might indeed do the trick. As to some of the other comments, I'm not willing to get rid of the TI flats just yet. I've got such a good thing going with them and I don't want jinx it! In fact, I'd almost switch basses before I'd switch strings.

By the way, the tech who looked at the bass was Norio Imai in NYC who built a lot of the Sadowskys out there. He's a real stand up guy and didn't want my money - he told me to go home and raise the action myself rather than start altering a nice old bass! I'm interested though that he didn't mention getting the frets dressed before telling me the only real fix would be a plane and refret. Again, he did tell me the frets were in great shape.

[tonebrulee]

Originally Posted by Balkan

without a buzzing on every single fret except the 7th on the G-string. Even that one wouldn't buzz if I had a super-light touch.

Sounds like it could be just one or two high frets. You can do a reasonable job checking for a high fret using anything with a short, straight edge. Have a look here and scroll down half way to get the idea - i.e. you know a fret is high when you feel the straight edge "rock" on the fret in the middle. If the frets have plenty of life in them, then a minimal fret dress should take care of it.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

Odd as it may sound, you may find that tightening the rod, and significantly raising the bridge saddles to compensate, works better. In other words, better to have the whole neck be relatively straight if possible, rather than just the upper portion.

+1
if it's really straight from the body to fret 10 or so and not backbowed anywhere, that's a good thing. put just a tiny bit of relief from there to the nut, raise up the saddles, and you should get a reasonably clear tone with reasonably good action.

[Balkan]

thanks all. I took the bass back to the shop and it turns out there is clearly a hump at the exact spot of the deadnote on the g string. You can even see the grain of the wood run along the side of the neck and then rise up and terminate at the fretboard right where the dead note is. I'm getting tired of having to do all this compensation for just a single note, so I decided to bite the bullet and have the fretboard sanded and refretted. Should be done in a couple of days. I could have tried just having the frets dressed but that wasn't cheap either and wouldn't have been a total fix.

[JLS]

Originally Posted by Balkan

thanks all. I took the bass back to the shop and it turns out there is clearly a hump at the exact spot of the deadnote on the g string. You can even see the grain of the wood run along the side of the neck and then rise up and terminate at the fretboard right where the dead note is. I'm getting tired of having to do all this compensation for just a single note, so I decided to bite the bullet and have the fretboard sanded and refretted. Should be done in a couple of days. I could have tried just having the frets dressed but that wasn't cheap either and wouldn't have been a total fix.

You got sold a bill o' goods; if you, in fact, had a low fret, that can be dealt with.

Hope I was wrong, and you *still* don't have that dead note

[walterw]

Originally Posted by JLS

You got sold a bill o' goods; if you, in fact, had a low fret, that can be dealt with.

Hope I was wrong, and you *still* don't have that dead note

nah, if the guy's good, sanding the board then refretting should get you a bass that plays better than it ever could otherwise.

[tonebrulee]

Originally Posted by Balkan

there is clearly a hump at the exact spot of the deadnote on the g string.

You can even see the grain of the wood run along the side of the neck and then rise up and terminate at the fretboard right where the dead note is.

Originally Posted by JLS

if you, in fact, had a low fret, that can be dealt with.

Given the hump, I'd say it's totally reasonable to plane the fretboard for a guaranteed improvement in the surface geometry. And it's reasonable too as an attempt to correct the dead spot

Let us know how the work goes in terms of the dead note. My sense is there are many factors that can cause a dead spot (including a poorly seated fret). If the spot is still dead after the work, it would suggest that the wood structure itself is the root cause - e.g. the rising grain structure you saw may have caused the hump in the fretboard surface, but how that grain structure effects the tone at that spot could be independent of the hump. i.e. removing the hump may not remove the tone problem if it is due to the overall grain pattern of the neck at that spot.

Fingers crossed for a great result - good luck!

[Balkan]

So I just got the bass back from the shop and I'm very happy with the work. I love the way it plays and sounds now and very happy I had this fixed. Of course part of that could be that I've missed having my P-Bass the last couple of weeks! (the upside is that I finally gave my Jazz a little more attention)

[tonebrulee]

Hey Balkan - that's great! Enjoy!