Lemon Oil...Bad?

[Tamochantern]

I was in a discussion over in "Basses" and got into Q&A about fretboard oils. Anyway, I did a google search and found this...thought it would be good for discussion but wanted it on the proper board...anyway what do you think?

"Lemon" oil (no lemon it) is the most often-recommended product for fingerboards, but it is less than ideal because it contains waxes which cause it to stay partially sticky and actually attracts more dirt. "Fingerboard dirt" is actually a sticky slurry of sweat, metal dust and oxides, and sloughed-off skin cells accumulate in between the frets.

http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Article...brd%20oil.html

[Tony G]

I use Formby's Lemon Oil Treatment for my basses with natural finishes. I have used it for years, and it has kept my wood looking and feeling great. It soaks in nicely to the wood leaving a nice soft, satin feel, and it enriches the color of the wood. Unless somebody tells me otherwise, I will continue to use it.
http://www.formbys.com/products/lemon_oil.cfm

[Foamy]

I am skeptical of that article in some ways. Some good advice, and some personal preference.
Way back when, a good teacher told me how to figure out the intent of any news article or editorial.
Basically, read the last paragraph first.
Since that has served me well throughout my adult life, I will apply it here and say that the guy is trying to sell you something.
May not be fair as it sounds like he is a smart guy who knows his stuff. But....lemon oil is used by a whole lot of people on a while lot of guitars and I will continue to use it myself.

[RLT]

Well Peavey recommends this for their guitars. http://www.peavey.com/products/brows...l+Care+Kit.cfm

I've used it for years with no problems.

Edit this page gives a close up of the bottle:http://www.peavey.com/products/brows.../Lemon+Oil.cfm

They claim it removes wax build up.

[Tamochantern]

Well like I said in the other thread (in Basses) I'm an "oil noob" so I didn't know. I actually always used mineral oil and haven't had any trouble.

[62bass]

It won't hurt anything. People have used it for years. Don't waste money on lemon oil though. Just go to the drug store and get a bottle of mineral oil which is lemon oil minus the fake lemon scent and yellow dye. You'll save money. Put it in a fancy looking bottle. Maybe have an artist friend do up a label for you and give it an exotic name. How about "Motown Soul Oil"? or "Detroit Funk Grease"?

Or get a bottle of the no name baby oil which has a perfume added. You might get some funny looks though when you open your bass case at a biker bar.

[stitchbass]

I use lemon oil once every few months on my stingray's rosewood fingerboard and it keeps it really smooth and feeling great.

[Stuggi]

On my yamaha I don't use any treatments at all. It stays smooth on it's own, plus that it's strung with flatwounds. On my G&L I use something from GHS called Fast Fret. It works wonders when used every month or so, but one souldn't use it as it says on the bottle "before and after playing", it get's all greasy and stuff

[Tamochantern]

+1 for FastFret. Thats what I use. Its pretty much just mineral oil anyway. The lead guitarist in my old band used to bitch about me using it, but it never presented a problem for me. Of course, I didn't use it as much as the directions said to either.

[bassjigga]

Fingerboards are usually unfinished so they will continue to dry for years to come. This can obviously lead to cracks especially in woods which naturally contain oils like rosewoods and ebony. Alembic recommends lemon oil but you want to get pure essential lemon oil, which is directly from lemon peels - no additives like waxes and silicons which common furniture polish type lemon oils contain. You can find pure lemon oil in health food stores. Most times it's in the place for aroma therapy stuff.

Mica at Alembic: "Lemon oil replaces some of the large molecules that evaporate out of the wood as it ages, and leaves the fingerboard unfinished with the nice touch of the natural wood. Cracks in the board start at cells where one of these large heavy turpines has evaporated. The heavy turpines in lemon oil are similar to the ones in ebony, so it's not like soaking it in water, more like ebony juice and just replacing what was lost."

Of course, don't overdo it. You don't want to over saturate the wood either. A few drops go a long way. Just spread it evenly over the board, let it soak in for about 30 mins, then use a soft cotton cloth to wipe off excess - make sure to get right up to the fret edge. Once or twice a year like this should do the trick.

[Giraffe]

One of the reasons there is so much confusion about this issue is that there are a plethora of products out there called lemon (or orange) oil, and many of them are quite different. Most are simply mineral spirits with other ingredients added for color and aroma. The stuff described by bassjigga looks altogether different, and I am going to try to track some down and try it out.

I think this simple experiment would be worthwhile for many of the "I've always used lemon oil and will continue to do so" camp. Get the version of "lemon oil" that you usually use, and a sample of a linseed oil based product, like boiled linseed oil or the Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil that so many folks use with great success. Get an old bass with a dried out, bleached out fret board, or any piece of rosewood or ebony that hasn't been treated in a while. New instruments with dry, sad looking pau ferro or chechen boards are good candidates for this test as well. Treat one area with the lemon/orange oil, and another adjacent area with the linseed product, making absolutely sure that you remove all of the excess, as specified in the instructions. Observe the results, over a period of time. You should have a light bulb moment within a day or two, depending on the test piece.

Make a determination on which works best for you based on your own controlled experiment. The Tru-Oil is available at any sporting goods store that deals with firearms. It is used to care for walnut shotgun stocks that work in salt water duck blinds, and most of the folks that I know who have actually compared it to the mineral spirits based products see the choice very clearly!

Please don't start a stupid flame war unless you have actually conducted the experiment. I am not saying that lemon oil is bad, I am respectfully suggesting that the linseed oil based products work much better for most people.

Now I'm going to try to track down some of the stuff bassjigga described and see if maybe that is even better!

[62bass]

Originally Posted by tombrien

One of the reasons there is so much confusion about this issue is that there are a plethora of products out there called lemon (or orange) oil, and many of them are quite different. Most are simply mineral spirits with other ingredients added for color and aroma. The stuff described by bassjigga looks altogether different, and I am going to try to track some down and try it out.

I think this simple experiment would be worthwhile for many of the "I've always used lemon oil and will continue to do so" camp. Get the version of "lemon oil" that you usually use, and a sample of a linseed oil based product, like boiled linseed oil or the Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil that so many folks use with great success. Get an old bass with a dried out, bleached out fret board, or any piece of rosewood or ebony that hasn't been treated in a while. New instruments with dry, sad looking pau ferro or chechen boards are good candidates for this test as well. Treat one area with the lemon/orange oil, and another adjacent area with the linseed product, making absolutely sure that you remove all of the excess, as specified in the instructions. Observe the results, over a period of time. You should have a light bulb moment within a day or two, depending on the test piece.

Make a determination on which works best for you based on your own controlled experiment. The Tru-Oil is available at any sporting goods store that deals with firearms. It is used to care for walnut shotgun stocks that work in salt water duck blinds, and most of the folks that I know who have actually compared it to the mineral spirits based products see the choice very clearly!

Please don't start a stupid flame war unless you have actually conducted the experiment. I am not saying that lemon oil is bad, I am respectfully suggesting that the linseed oil based products work much better for most people.

Now I'm going to try to track down some of the stuff bassjigga described and see if maybe that is even better!

Yes, a little bit of sanity was needed. Thanks.This topic keeps coming up, almost weekly. It never gets resolved.

[theflying007]

I play a lot in a very hot country, that´s why I also sweat a lot and have to change my strings twice a month. I always have to clean my neck with alcohol and put some lemon oil on it. If I wouldn´t do so the neck dries out. As far as I know lemon oil is the only oil that does not stick to your strings and damages your sound, so I keep using it. Besides that: every time I use it, my bass whipers to me: oooooh baby, you know how to treat a lady!

[RLT]

If following tombrien's challenge. Be positively sure you get a "boiled" linseed oil.
The raw stuff just lays there and never dries out.

I forgot all about Birchwood Casy's Tru-oil. I used a stock oil that Brownell's marketed under their name for years on really neglected instruments I aquired.

I used linseed oil on all of my gun stocks. The hand rubbed finish you get from it is unique.

[bassjigga]

Oh I forgot to mention too, it's good to put your old strings back on for a few days to be safe because any remnant of oil will ruin new strings.

[bassjigga]

Originally Posted by tombrien

One of the reasons there is so much confusion about this issue is that there are a plethora of products out there called lemon (or orange) oil, and many of them are quite different. Most are simply mineral spirits with other ingredients added for color and aroma. The stuff described by bassjigga looks altogether different, and I am going to try to track some down and try it out.

Yeah, the difference is it actually IS lemon oil - without the other stuff. I get a brand called Aura Cacia at Whole Foods. It's like $5 for a 1 oz. bottle.

[The Craw]

Originally Posted by tombrien

I think this simple experiment would be worthwhile for many of the "I've always used lemon oil and will continue to do so" camp. Get the version of "lemon oil" that you usually use, and a sample of a linseed oil based product, like boiled linseed oil or the Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil that so many folks use with great success. Get an old bass with a dried out, bleached out fret board, or any piece of rosewood or ebony that hasn't been treated in a while. New instruments with dry, sad looking pau ferro or chechen boards are good candidates for this test as well. Treat one area with the lemon/orange oil, and another adjacent area with the linseed product, making absolutely sure that you remove all of the excess, as specified in the instructions. Observe the results, over a period of time. You should have a light bulb moment within a day or two, depending on the test piece.

Boiled linseed oil and Birchwood Casey Tru Oil are finishes, not lubricating oils. Both of them dry to a surface film. Tru Oil is a polymerized linseed oil with driers, and its film is almost as hard as a short oil varnish. Fine if that's what you want, and they'll both improve the look of a dull dry fretboard but they aren't meant to oil it.

A lot of "lemon oils" aren't lubricating oils either. Many of them are just petroleum-based cleaners with a little lemongrass oil added for aroma. Fine if you want to clean grime off your fretboard, but not what you need to oil a dry board.

Moral: know what you're buying.

For lubrication I use a very small amount of Roche Thomas fingerboard oil. A little goes a long way.

[Giraffe]

It was a true pain in the neck tracking this stuff down, but I found some Aura Cacia Lemon, at $4.69 for 1/2 ounce. The label claims that this stuff cleanses the body, opens the mind, and elevates the spirit. The web site contends that this product "...can help you achieve physical, emotional, mental and spiritual well-being." If even half of the claims are true, that is the best $5 I've ever spent! Even owners of Sadowsky Basses don't make such claims!

I'll try it out side by side with some BLO and Tru-Oil and some Wyndmere Pure Essential Orange Oil ($2.92 for 1/3 oz.) and see how they stack up. I'll photograph the test piece immediately before and after treatment, then one day later, then two days later. Assuming my third-rate digital camera gets reasonable images, I'll post them up for all to see.

As 62 pointed out, this issue gets brought up on what seems like a weekly basis, everyone chimes in espousing how great their favorite is, but most seem convinced that the world is either flat or round and therefore there is no need for a comparison of the different alternatives.

[Giraffe]

"Boiled linseed oil and Birchwood Casey Tru Oil are finishes, not lubricating oils."

This is not completely accurate. BLO and Tru-Oil are penetrating finishes. Properly applied, no surface film is left behind. This is from the label of Kleen Strip BLO: "IMPORTANT: Boiled Linseed Oil must penetrate the surface of the wood to completely dry. Any excess oil remaining on the surface after application should be removed by wiping with a clean, dry, cloth. An excessive buildup of Boiled Linseed Oil will cause a gummy residue or blotchy finish to form on the surface of the wood." Birchwood Casey recommends that the treated surface should be buffed with 00 steel wool after drying, which quickly removes any surface residue. An oil finish is in the wood, not on the surface. For some reason, many folks don't get this part, and they leave that shiny film on (actually above) the surface of the wood.

"Both of them dry to a surface film."

Only when incorrectly applied. See above.

"A lot of "lemon oils" aren't lubricating oils either. Many of them are just petroleum-based cleaners with a little lemongrass oil added for aroma. Fine if you want to clean grime off your fretboard, but not what you need to oil a dry board."

We don't really want to lubricate the board, we actually want to feed the wood. The first priority is to replace the natural oils in the wood that dry out/dissipate/evaporate over time. (Read the post from Mica at Alembic in one of the earlier posts.) This helps prevent checking, and keeps the wood looking beautiful. With the linseed based products, we get the additional benefit of a harder, less porous surface when the oil beneath the surface of the wood cures.

I couldn't care less if someone prefers another product. Just make informed decisions, and don't dismiss a product as faulty until you get the hang of using it correctly!

[The Craw]

Originally Posted by tombrien

"Boiled linseed oil and Birchwood Casey Tru Oil are finishes, not lubricating oils."

This is not completely accurate. BLO and Tru-Oil are penetrating finishes. Properly applied, no surface film is left behind. This is from the label of Kleen Strip BLO: "IMPORTANT: Boiled Linseed Oil must penetrate the surface of the wood to completely dry. Any excess oil remaining on the surface after application should be removed by wiping with a clean, dry, cloth. An excessive buildup of Boiled Linseed Oil will cause a gummy residue or blotchy finish to form on the surface of the wood." Birchwood Casey recommends that the treated surface should be buffed with 00 steel wool after drying, which quickly removes any surface residue. An oil finish is in the wood, not on the surface. For some reason, many folks don't get this part, and they leave that shiny film on (actually above) the surface of the wood.


"Both of them dry to a surface film."

Only when incorrectly applied. See above.

Sorry, but you're mistaken. You might want to read Bob Flexner or Jeff Jewitt's wood finishing books if you're not familiar with what a wood finish is supposed to do.

You're misinterpreting the Klean Strip label. You wipe off the excess so it will dry without getting gummy, but the whole point of an oil finish is to leave a protective film after it penetrates. BLO dries to a soft film, and it's supposed to.

Tru Oil has a harder film. Again, it's supposed to. That's why Birchwood Casey says it "forms a tough, clear, hard finish that protects and enhances the beauty of fine woods." You buff with steel wool if you want a handrubbed matte finish, not to "remove surface residue." If you don't want a matte finish, you can build up a high gloss with multiple coats.

Drying oils always leave a film. OTOH, mineral oil and the like are nondrying oils. They don't leave a film. They aren't finishes.

All oil finishes penetrate, that's not the point. But they're finishes. I don't want a finish on my rosewood, pau ferro or ebony boards.

Originally Posted by tombrien

"A lot of "lemon oils" aren't lubricating oils either. Many of them are just petroleum-based cleaners with a little lemongrass oil added for aroma. Fine if you want to clean grime off your fretboard, but not what you need to oil a dry board."

We don't really want to lubricate the board, we actually want to feed the wood. The first priority is to replace the natural oils in the wood that dry out/dissipate/evaporate over time. (Read the post from Mica at Alembic in one of the earlier posts.) This helps prevent checking, and keeps the wood looking beautiful. With the linseed based products, we get the additional benefit of a harder, less porous surface when the oil beneath the surface of the wood cures.

"Feeding the wood" is marketing speak. The tree is dead. Oil lubricates. That's why I used the word. When the wood needs to be oiled, I want an oil -- not a cleaner -- and not an oil finsih.