Lightweight replacement machine heads (tuners) for Mustang bass reissue

[Hooveoperator]

Hi there,

I've been checking out ways to stop the neck dive on the mustang and came across this on the Internet:

http://www.theellingsworths.net/millard/hipshot/

Looks ugly as hell from the back but... perhaps worth it. Or...

Gotoh are now producing a Res-o-lite range and the GBR-640 machine heads are only 64.0 grams each. Might be nice fix for an annoying problem.

I originally thought that the machine heads on the Mustang were the standard vintage Fender ones but apparently they are not (according to one music shop). So my questions are:

1) Does anyone know for sure if the Mustang tuners are the same dimensions as the standard vintage fender ones?

and

2) Can anyone suggest a good lightweight replacement for my current Mustang machine heads (preferably that doesn't involve drilling any more holes in the headstock!)?

Thanks in advance!

[jcoopcoyote]

Those hip shot ultra lights look like a good solution. I think someone makes ultra lights that are exact Fender style replacements? I really went to extremes on a cheap short scale SX P-bass. I shaved the head stock down similar to the shape of a tele-bass. Then I replaced the Fender style tuners with mini style Gotoh tuners. The local repair shop suggested using drum sticks to plug the larger tunning peg holes and then re-drilling them. Instead I found the mini's fit snugly inside the ferrals from the Fender style tuners. It cost me a little weight but made the job easier. I'm lazy and it solved the problem.
So if you try that, the only new holes you are making are for the screws on the back of the headstock.

[Hooveoperator]

Sounds like you've done quite a job on the SX there Jcoopcoyote.

I'm assuming you've now got a perfectly balanced bass! I've gone ahead and ordered the Gotoh GBR-640 tuners so I'll let you know how that works out. I've also considered altering the headstock on the Mustang (it is huge) but I'm not 100% sure that I'll be keeping it forever so I'd like to keep it as stock as possible in the meantime. Thanks for the advice though.

[Hooveoperator]

News just in.... the Gotoh GBR-640 resolite tuners don't fit the Mustang (shouldn't have trusted the Fender website that states the Mustang uses standard vintage tuners... also should have done some proper measuring up myself - doh!). Still, if anyone is in the market for some ultralight replacement tuners for their vintage Fender P or J (and is in the UK) - let me know.

[billbass1]

I would suggest not removeing any mass from the headstock.
I think it is there for a good reason.
It is my theory that it adds to the tone and sustain of the bass .
Of course, I could be wrong, but is it that important to go ahead with all that work, only
to find out after the fact ?

I like a nice suede strap myself, to help counteract neck dive.
It grips quite nicely instead of slideing around.

[Hooveoperator]

I think you're probably right Bill. I'm guessing that the weight of the tuners themselves wouldn't have much bearing on the sound though...? I've got a nice suede strap and the mustang balances well horizontally but I do prefer it at more of an angle which causes the strap to feel uncomfortable as the bass just doesn't want to sit there. Still, I'm sure I'll adjust.

Might consider the hipshot ultralight tuners option if I can get a reasonable price for the Gotoh tuners.

[jcoopcoyote]

There are conflicting opinions about weather headstock mass adds sustain. Some companies install steel plates or sell clamp on weights. Other companies say it robs energy and make small headstocks. Don't forget about headless basses. I was willing to experiment with a cheap bass. I don't notice any difference in sound or sustain after cutting off quite a bit of wood and installing lighter tuners. The bass balances much better, so I think it was a success. I wouldn't have tried it on an expensive bass though.
One luthier suggested raising the rear strap button about an inch, but I didn't find that to help.
Rough suede straps are grippy and may cut down on some neck dive, but when the bass does dive down, it makes it harder to slide it back up into place?
I had a mustang for a few years and the neck dive was one of the reasons I sold it.

[Hooveoperator]

Have to agree with you jc. I've got a neck through headless and it sustains like nothing else I've ever played - would seem to contradict the large headstock theory!

[tolson36]

seems like you could add weight to the body (as low on the body as possible) to counterbalance the neck.

Some type of heavy metal plate could be stuck onto the back

I personally don't find the neck dive too objectionable but I use a wide fender strap that seems to have just enough friction to keep the neck up ok.

[dewbass4]

I played a Mustang for several years in the late 60's. I used a leather strap with a rough back that gripped my shoulder. I never noticed any neck dive issues with that strap. Simple and cheap solution.

[Pilgrim]

There's something SERIOUSLY wrong with the weight citations on that review linked in the first post.

5896 grams = 208 ounces = 13 pounds. I refuse to believe that "The Fender tuners, collars and screws weighed in at 5896 grams."

The reviewer says the Hipshot Ultralights weighed 2917 grams = 103 ounces = 6.4 pounds. No way!!

I'm not accusing him of lying, but there is something extremely wrong with his measuring ability and math. There's no way a set of four tuners weighs 6 pounds, much less 13. they'd have to come with their own decorative bowling ball to hang from the headstock. Heck, the entire Mustang bass probably weighs about 6 pounds.

I know the hipshots are lighter, but this makes no sense at all. Also, on his Mustang bass the center of balance moved from the 17th to the 18th fret. I have no idea why that would be a meaningful data point, but I'm satisfied that he cares about it.

All I can suggest is to do more homework on ACTUAL weights of the original tuners and whatever replacements you have in mind. If the weight reduction is less than 6 ounces, I don't think I'd spend $100 or more on it.

My suggestion? The Mustang bass is very light. Get some adhesive wheel weights at a tire shop and stick about four ounces of weight on the back side of the bass down by the strap button. if needed, add more weight until you are at 10-12 ounces, but I bet it won't take that much. Your balance will be perfect and it will cost less than $10 and two minutes of your time.

Here's where I hid the weight on my Jay Turser '51 P clone...11 ounces added, perfect balance achieved, total instrument weight about 7.5 pounds including tire weights.

[tolson36]

The Mustang Bass reissue is about 8lbs total at most.

The use of tire weights is a great idea.

[jrfrond]

FYI- the UltraLites have a cloverleaf button option to match Fender machines.

[Hooveoperator]

Think the measurements in the link are just missing a decimal point - makes much more sense that way anyway. 5896 becomes 589.6.

Interesting idea with the tire weights.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Hooveoperator

Think the measurements in the link are just missing a decimal point - makes much more sense that way anyway. 5896 becomes 589.6.

Interesting idea with the tire weights.

AH! That would make sense. I'll leave it to those who are directly interested to do the math. There are plenty of internet conversion sites where one can plug in the numbers and get the actual conversion.

[lefty007]

I changed the tuners in my '82 Jazz to Hipshot Ultralites and saved a total of 6.8 ounces - almost 1/2 lb.

From Stemac.com page:

". . . These tuners [Ultralites] weigh 1.8 oz. each, compared to approx 2.3 oz. for a sealed Gotoh and 3.5 oz. for a Schaller style tuners [Fender-style]."


To take 1/2 lb off a bass' headstock makes a huge difference. The Hipshots fit nicely on Fender headstocks. There is a bit of extra room, but the guide screw plus the washer in the posts makes for a tight fit. You need the 1/2" model.

[portaflexer]

Great thread. I just came across this. I love TalkBass.

[PrivateHigh]

When I installed hipshot ultralites on mia p bass, they introduced some deadspots on the E string. Stock mia tuners seem to hold tune better as well. I was a bit disappointed with ultralites with their 'not so solid' feeling.

[halloweenfiend]

Do what I did and move the strap button to the lower horn. The bass will not want to move to horizontal as much and you will be able to play the bass at nearly vertical if u want.

[portaflexer]

Actually... my motivation was not to eliminate neck diving, but to get some better quality tuners on my Mustang. I installed Hipshots HB7's on my P-bass & HB2's on my J-bass. Ever since then... I can't stand the feel of stock tuners. I just want something with a little better quality. I don't mind re-drilling the mounting holes, but I don't want to re-drill the peg holes.