Massive buzz when fretting 7th fret on E and G strings

ModuMan · #1 02-08-2009, 03:56 PM

I've been running into a set-up problem on a couple of basses that has been driving me crazy. While I'm not totally unfamiliar with set-up procedures when this problem comes up I just don't know what to do about it. Let me describe...

Every individual note will sound fine up and down the neck but when I play the 7th fret on the E string along with the 7th fret on the G string it buzzes like crazy. That same chord a fret higher or lower will be fine... just at the 7th fret. The D on the G string will sound fine by itself... until I press down (not even play) the B on the E string and vice versa.

Now, I currently have this problem on two bases. One is a ATK750KA where, sighting down the neck I think I see a high fret around there. However, I have the same problem on my Sadowsky NYC 5-24! Obviously they are known for their fretwork so I'd like to think that the problem is my setup and not their finishing. The Sadowsky was perfect when I first got it (I even tried that chord!) but over the course of the winter the action got higher. I hadn't touched anything but I can't ignore that. Even with the action cartoonishly high I still have that buzz. I'm a little hesitant to mess with the Sadowsky Setup since it initially was so perfect but I don't think I have a choice now. I've tried tweaking the truss rod and raising the E string saddle a bit but no joy.

Any ideas? Regardless of individual basses does this particular buzz in this particular position "mean" something or indicate a particular course of action?

Johnny Mack · #2 02-09-2009, 04:22 AM

i like your use of the word "cartoonishly".

weird, especially on two basses. does this happen when played unplugged? can you pinpoint the buzz (at the fret, nut, bridge, etc.) ? im thinking its either a weird harmonic youre hitting or something with the frets. it would be an oddity that both basses have the 8th fret a smidgen high, but not impossible. hopefully someone can stroll in here with a better idea.

Vincent P · #3 02-09-2009, 04:51 AM

I have to agree with you Johnny,

It would seem odd that two seperate basses of different models would exhibit the same issue, play them unplugged and see if this is still the case. I had a lamp with a upsided down metal shade (light was reflected to the ceiling) that would vibrate when I would play the same configuration as you. This lamp sat directly in front of me in the basement, and did seem as if it was from the base.

ModuMan · #4 02-09-2009, 06:06 AM

This is all unplugged. I'm not 100% on where the noise is, but I don't think it's the bridge... it sounds like it's behind the fret but I don't think it's the nut either.

I think I have narrowed it down somewhat to the E string... if I also fret the 6th fret in addition to the 7th then it stops. Also, if I capo the first fret the problem moves to the 8th fret. Move the capo to the second fret the buzz also moves up a fret to the 9th.

202dy · #5 02-09-2009, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModuMan

This is all unplugged. I'm not 100% on where the noise is, but I don't think it's the bridge... it sounds like it's behind the fret but I don't think it's the nut either.

I think I have narrowed it down somewhat to the E string... if I also fret the 6th fret in addition to the 7th then it stops. Also, if I capo the first fret the problem moves to the 8th fret. Move the capo to the second fret the buzz also moves up a fret to the 9th.

This is an interesting problem. What you describe sounds as if there is a lot of relief in the neck(s). However, there is no way to tell over the internet without more data. Please measure the relief and string height and post it here. Someone will help you.

One last question. Does it buzz when plugged into an amp?

Relic · #6 02-09-2009, 07:18 AM

maybe a particular fret is too high or too low? When a fret loosens and sits higher then the others nearby, you can get fret buzz in one spot. Moving up or down one or two steps, you wont hear it.
Another potential cause - if you favor a certain spot/string on the neck in your playing style, you may potentially wear frets down excessively in just that one area, more so then elsewhere. The result buzzing in one or more frets in one area but not others nearby. This could possibly be it since it's more than one bass affected. The solution would be a fret job. Your luthier may even be able to just recrown without too much hassle.

Turnaround · #7 02-09-2009, 07:28 AM

Often when I run into this problem I find that the string is vibrating against the frets between the finger position and the nut. Try this - finger your chord, then while still holding it gently pluck the E and G strings each on the nut side of the chord. See if you get some buzz.

If so, the nut slots may be a little too low. Or there may not be enough relief in the neck.

Why does this happen only on this particular chord in this position? Well it has to do with sympathetic vibration. The section of the string between the nut and the fingers is responding to the particular frequencies in the resonance of the bass and begin to vibrate a bit more than usual in this area. This causes them to rattle a bit against the frets.

Check your relief first - it's easiest to deal with. Make sure you have at least 12 thou of relief - up to 15 thou wouldn't hurt. If the problem is still there, try slipping a couple of thicknesses of paper under the string at the nut and check for buzz again. If this corrects the problem your string slots are too low - time to shim or replace the nut.

Brado · #8 02-09-2009, 08:17 AM

To put relief/ or not to put relief.....that is the opinion. I set my necks dead straight. If the fret job is perfect & the nut/ zero fret is the right height, Everything should work fine. I have run into a similar problem...I would play a chord around the 7th fret that used the low E & the G...I would get a crazy buzz behind the fretted notes. It turns out my 5th fret was sitting a little high & the nut slot for my E was a little low. I used a drop of superglue in the low E slot....let it dry & set to the curvature of the slot.....it was just enough to get clearance.....I later had the frets re-leveled/ crowned....everything works buzz free now. Relief in a neck doesn't make sense to me. You venture up to the 14th, 15th, higher...frets & get buzz (even if your frets are perfect)....so you have to jack up your saddles....before you know it, you've got a 4 string bow & arrow that requires the touch of an NFL linebacker. There's my rant. I say set the neck straight & address the problem spots...It's probably a fret or two along with the nut.

Bassamatic · #9 02-09-2009, 09:57 AM

In general, necks should be set with a little bit of relief to match the arc of the string when it is vibrating - it is not a straight line - think of how a jump rope looks. Then, the saddles can be set a little lower to make up for the relief.

It is POSSIBLE that with your particular strings and setup, that the lack of relief catches up at that point on those strings. Also, weather changes may have moved your necks just enough to cause the problem on both basses.

Best guess I can come up with.

Johnny Mack · #10 02-09-2009, 01:37 PM

sounds like its on the nut side of fretted notes. probably not enough relief or a bad fret in the 3-7 range.

stflbn · #11 02-09-2009, 01:40 PM

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting...et_Rocker.html

If it's happening on two different basses I can't help but suspect that it's something you're unknowingly doing with your setups.

.

ModuMan · #12 02-09-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stflbn

If it's happening on two different basses I can't help but suspect that it's something you're unknowingly doing with your setups.

I think you're right, I just wish I knew what it was!

To answer a couple of questions, both of these basses are brand new. So there's no issue of fret wear.

I plugged in and I had my wife listen to the speaker and she heard the noises when I played the right chord. It's not as brutal through the speaker but it's still there.

As for relief, I don't have the best measuring devices at the moment but I can tell you that without fretting anything there is over 1/16th of an inch between the crown of the 7th fret and the bottom of the E string. Also, with the first fret capo'd and fretting the last fret there is at least a business card's width at that spot.

I tried further tweaking with the Ibanez and with a combination of tweaking the truss to have more bow and raising the E saddle quite a bit I *thought* I had it. But then I realized the string was out of tune. Once it was back to pitch the problem returned. So, sharp or flat it's fine!

I tried the paper trick at the nut on the E string of the Ibanez but no matter how many folds I stuck under there the noise was still happening.

I appreciate all the input, please keep it coming!

Turnaround · #13 02-09-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModuMan

I tried the paper trick at the nut on the E string of the Ibanez but no matter how many folds I stuck under there the noise was still happening.

Did you try putting the paper under the G string? It may be the one that has the problem.

stflbn · #14 02-09-2009, 03:41 PM

Have you raised or lowered your saddles on your bridge at all?

ModuMan · #15 02-09-2009, 07:29 PM

I've tried raising and lowering saddles, to the point where they are completely too high (unplayable) or too low (buzzing at the 12-14th).

Regarding the paper trick, I didn't try under the G but the reason I didn't is that I can only make the noise stop by fretting the 6th (or lower) in addition to the 7th on the E string. That same approach on the G doesn't do anything. Worth a try, of course.

Johnny Mack · #16 02-09-2009, 10:39 PM

free bump for a weird problem

Turnaround · #17 02-10-2009, 06:16 AM

OK I did a bit more research. Here's what's probably going on.

It's likely the E string that's buzzing. When you fret the E and G strings at the seventh fret, the note produced on the G string is D. At the same time the "note" formed on the nut side of the E string is also a D. While the D note is sounding on the G string, it is sympathetically exciting the E string on the nut side which is rattling against the 5th fret.

You can produce the same effect by fretting the E string at the seventh and plucking it together with the open D string.

So what's the cure? Well you only have three choices if your frets are level - increase the relief, raise the nut slot on the E string, or change your playing technique so that you dampen the E string on the nut side when sounding these two notes together.

Johnny Mack · #18 02-10-2009, 01:45 PM

i agree with that post, although it may not be specific to the 5th fret on the E string. when the OP capoed at the first fret and chorded the 8th, and again capoed the second fret and chorded the 9th, he was essentially doing the same thing farther up the neck. it sounds like there is not quite enough relief in the neck(s). loosen truss rod a tiddly bit at a time.

ModuMan · #19 02-10-2009, 02:33 PM

Good point by Turnaround! It really did seem like a sympathetic vibration and I didn't know that the note on the "other side" of the B on the E was a D, which was also being played on the G string. (whew)

And to his point, I got the same result playing the fretted 7th on the E and an open D.

As Johnny Mack pointed out that I mentioned (again, whew) that by capo-ing the first fret I can move the problem up a fret... it sounds to my ears that the notes on the other side of the fretted note on the E continue to correspond with the fretted note on the G.

I'm not entirely convinced about the nut being an issue only because I can use the capo to replicate the problem a fret higher. It may well be the relief but darned if I can find that sweet spot since I've tried giving it more and less relief in small stages to the point of being unplayable and the problem remained.

Right now I'm leaning towards simply changing my technique! I will see if I can determine if the frets are level. While nothing would surprise my on the Ibanez I'd be pretty shocked if the Sadowsky was poorly dressed.

alexgeddy · #20 02-10-2009, 02:44 PM

Here's a different thought....when playing the notes that make things buzz, have someone hold the A string firmly in the nut....Fender style headstocks are notorius for the A string rattling on the open note...if that's the case you need to put more wraps on the A string when you put strings on...

another thing I had problems with was the springs rattling in the bridge....

Just some other options!! Good luck,

bill