Metal Insert for Strap Button

[gtvrb]

My J bass strap pulled out of the bass. I think it is beyond the point of the toothpick trick to fix it. I know some people get wooden plugs and re-drill but is it possible to get an insert similar to the ones people use to upgrade the neck connection? It would have to be longer than the 1/4" or so ones used on a bolt on neck.
Thanks

[lowfreq33]

I'm sure you can, but it doesn't seem like it would be any easier than plugging it.

[Rockmusician]

I had a similar problem and didn't think a tooth pick would fix it. Here is how I solved it.

Use a tooth pick and some Gorilla Glue. Be careful not to use too much glue. It expands as it dries. I recommend the white version of the glue because it dries faster. Either brush it on the tooth picks or put a small drop in the hole after inserting the tooth pick. Immediately screw the strap button into the hole. Let it sit overnight. It should hold fine. I did this on one of my basses over a year ago and it is still holding.

[PhiDeck]

The length of the threaded insert is determined only by the number of threads that you need the mating machine screw to engage.
It appears that 0.375" is standard length for 6-32 and 8-32 threads:
Thread Inserts for Hard Wood by E-Z LOK

[fhm555]

If you look, most threaded inserts will allow a bolt to pass through so length of insert is not really an issue, just drill your hole a bit deeper than you need for the inssert. Most inserts are usually built to conform to the standard of thread depth=2X thread diameter which should be plenty of thread to do what you need it to do. Since you won't have a lot of thread holding things together, use a (tiny) dab of blue loctite on the bolt threads when you put everything together.

The real trick will be mounting the insert so the button butts up against it when mounted. You don't want to leave any unsupported screw between the insert and button. Some bolt out the back of the insert won't hurt, but try not to set the insert too deep you leave bolt exposed between the insert and strap button.

[251]

Originally Posted by gtvrb

My J bass strap pulled out of the bass. I think it is beyond the point of the toothpick trick to fix it. I know some people get wooden plugs and re-drill but is it possible to get an insert similar to the ones people use to upgrade the neck connection? It would have to be longer than the 1/4" or so ones used on a bolt on neck.
Thanks

Consider a machine screw insert, similar to those used for mounting bolt on necks?

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by gtvrb

My J bass strap pulled out of the bass. I think it is beyond the point of the toothpick trick to fix it.

That's not possible - multiple toothpicks and glue will literally fix any strap post situation on a wooden body - you're making this out to be harder than it actually is...


- georgestrings

[Phendyr_Loon]

Originally Posted by georgestrings

That's not possible - multiple toothpicks and glue will literally fix any strap post situation on a wooden body - you're making this out to be harder than it actually is...


- georgestrings

Agreed. And if you don't trust toothpicks, hardwood slivers are good to use too.

[251]

Originally Posted by georgestrings

That's not possible - multiple toothpicks and glue will literally fix any strap post situation on a wooden body - you're making this out to be harder than it actually is...


- georgestrings

to paraphrase Shakespeare - There is more to repairing wood instruments than is included in your tool kit.

If not a machine screw insert, consider drilling, gluing a wood dowel made from material similar to your bass body & then pilot drilling a hole for the mounting screw. 8-)

[96tbird]

The grain direction on new dowel travels lengthwise and is the least desirable for screw holding ability. Wood holds best when screwed cross grain. New solid body instruments have strap buttons inserted exactly in the grain direction as new dowel will be and that is why they fail. Dowel is worse because as the new threads cut they can split the new wood lengthwise building in quick failure.

Picks or slivers work better because The threading process compresses the bits across their grain forcing them into the surrounding wood. Pack them in tight. The slim dimensions and spaces in between for the excellent adhesion and strength of hardened carpenter's glue (not your child's white school glue) make for a superior repair. Gorilla glue is OK but can be messy. Carpenter's glue cleans up with water.

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by 96tbird

The grain direction on new dowel travels lengthwise and is the least desirable for screw holding ability. Wood holds best when screwed cross grain. New solid body instruments have strap buttons inserted exactly in the grain direction as new dowel will be and that is why they fail. Dowel is worse because as the new threads cut they can split the new wood lengthwise building in quick failure.

Picks or slivers work better because The threading process compresses the bits across their grain forcing them into the surrounding wood. Pack them in tight. The slim dimensions and spaces in between for the excellent adhesion and strength of hardened carpenter's glue (not your child's white school glue) make for a superior repair. Gorilla glue is OK but can be messy. Carpenter's glue cleans up with water.

Exactly - it's been explained many times here why using a dowel is structurally inferior to multiple toothpicks and wood glue...


- georgestrings

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by 251

to paraphrase Shakespeare - There is more to repairing wood instruments than is included in your tool kit.

If not a machine screw insert, consider drilling, gluing a wood dowel made from material similar to your bass body & then pilot drilling a hole for the mounting screw. 8-)

See above...


- georgestrings

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by gtvrb

My J bass strap pulled out of the bass. I think it is beyond the point of the toothpick trick to fix it. I know some people get wooden plugs and re-drill but is it possible to get an insert similar to the ones people use to upgrade the neck connection? It would have to be longer than the 1/4" or so ones used on a bolt on neck.
Thanks

Yes, it's a great idea and these inserts work wonderfully for bolting on necks, bridges and the like. But the bad news is life is not going to cooperate with you!

The really decent kind of threaded inserts (EZ-lok) with the little knife-edges you screw in are too big for strap buttons! The smallest they come is 8-32 which is too large for a strap button. I suppose you might drill out the strap buttons, but as I prefer strap-locks that sort ends the thing.

There are other inserts you can buy in 6-32 or smaller. I use 4-40 inserts to hold on pickguards and cavity covers. They are tiny and sort of knurled on the outside. They do NOT take a lot of force before they pull out (I also put epoxy on them before pressing them in). Good enough for guards and covers but would never hold a strap button! And there are some brass threaded ones too. They are VERY hard to install and not much better!

Bottom line is you've got a good idea but I know of no place that sells decent inserts in the size you'd need. Hence, it's back to toothpicks. A dowel works too, but for a strap button, I'd go with toothpicks and super glue. (sort of a "plastic" threaded insert by the time you are done gluing and drilling and inserting the wood screw. )

[fhm555]

Originally Posted by georgestrings

Exactly - it's been explained many times here why using a dowel is structurally inferior to multiple toothpicks and wood glue...


- georgestrings

Glad I didn't know how inferior it was to use a dowel rod before I drilled my little mexi j and glued in a piece of oak dowel from the local hobby shop. Had I known what a mistake I was making I might have developed some kind of complex about doing it all wrong.

The tail button was so punky it was pathetic and the strap locks I wanted to mount had smaller screws than what was being used for the stock buttons so I decided to redo the holes and apparently I screwed up when I used a structurally inferior dowel instead of toothpicks.

I did make a point to drill a hole small enough the plug needed to be tapped in to place, then drilled a small pilot hole in the plug so there would be plenty of compression when a screw was run in and installed the plugs, drilled them and ran in the new screws before the glue set.

I'm not sure what went wrong, but it's been holding just fine since i did it.

I only use it every day for practice at home and just about every weekend to play out so maybe I'm just not using it enough for the weakness of the dowel to show itself?

I'm really embarrassed to say this but I'm about to ruin another bass the same way when I get around to installing strap locks on it.

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by fhm555

Glad I didn't know how inferior it was to use a dowel rod before I drilled my little mexi j and glued in a piece of oak dowel from the local hobby shop. Had I known what a mistake I was making I might have developed some kind of complex about doing it all wrong.

The tail button was so punky it was pathetic and the strap locks I wanted to mount had smaller screws than what was being used for the stock buttons so I decided to redo the holes and apparently I screwed up when I used a structurally inferior dowel instead of toothpicks.

I did make a point to drill a hole small enough the plug needed to be tapped in to place, then drilled a small pilot hole in the plug so there would be plenty of compression when a screw was run in and installed the plugs, drilled them and ran in the new screws before the glue set.

I'm not sure what went wrong, but it's been holding just fine since i did it.

I only use it every day for practice at home and just about every weekend to play out so maybe I'm just not using it enough for the weakness of the dowel to show itself?

I'm really embarrassed to say this but I'm about to ruin another bass the same way when I get around to installing strap locks on it.

Hey, some people prefer to remain ignorant, even when presented with basic principles - woodworking, in this case...


- georgestrings

[251]

Originally Posted by georgestrings

See above...


- georgestrings

It took a while to find the reference to your post.

Live & learn - or accept the concept that repairing a weak spot in the design may not last better than the original. I understand the mechanical principle of toothpicks & glue. I have never had to live with such a repair. With luck I never will. 8-)

[96tbird]

Oh come on. Dowel if you want. Facts are facts. But no one said its wrong. Merely pointed out a potential issue.

[fhm555]

Originally Posted by georgestrings

Hey, some people prefer to remain ignorant, even when presented with basic principles - woodworking, in this case...


- georgestrings

To be sure...which is why I'll never be able to play that mangled POS bass again without my cheeks flaming red with shame from the constant reminder of my ignorance right there in my hands for the whole world to see, or at least the three people who turn out to hear us play.

Sadly enough I've got 2 other basses I've also ruined using the same method to install strap lock buttons. No problems yet...but I'm sure they will be along any minute now.

At least I quit peeling apples counter clockwise so progress has been made against my preference for inferior methods, however small it may be.

[96tbird]

Exactly.

[gtvrb]

I read somewhere else (can't find it now) that you can get wood plugs that are different than dowls in that the grain goes the correct direction. Anyone have any info on these? I think the person in the post called them wooden plugs but I don't know if that is the correct name for it.
Thanks