moving bridge back

hendrixbikedog · #1 02-10-2011, 06:36 PM

The other day I picked up a used Epiphone Les Paul and while restringing and checking everything was tightened and in tune I noticed I couldn't get the intonation right for my A string. The saddle was all the way back but was still coming up as sharp. So I did some measurments and moved the bridge back half an inch so I would have room to set the intonation on all the strings. I'm wondering if this will cause any problems that I should look out for? After moving the bridge back i noticed it is raised slightly in the back since the body isnt completely flat. Measuring from the nut to the begining of the bridge is 34"

Thanks
-Learning by tweaking and taking things apart

SurferJoe46 · #2 02-10-2011, 10:36 PM

If it intonates, then all is good.

As I've never seen a bridge 1/2" off from the factory and you mighta jumped the shark here a little too early.

I'd have found a reason why that intonation was so far off in the first place.

hendrixbikedog · #3 02-11-2011, 09:53 AM

what could be another reason for the intonation to be off other than saddle position? i didnt know what intonation was till about a month ago.

SurferJoe46 · #4 02-11-2011, 09:59 AM

Although I don't fully understand how, it is said by some that a defective string can cause this problem. I don't profess to understand how - but I've seen positive results from a string or string brand change.

Unless the neck wasn't Sanforized at the factory or you left it in the rain, I don't see how a physical device like a bridge could be so far out of intonation as to require moving it.

Is this a stock bridge? Sorry if you've already posted it was or wasn't - but 1/4" is a heck of a lot of 'wrong' from a factory even if the bridges are installed by Braille. And 1/2" inch is totally out of my mental picture.

I'd really look hard and long for some other dynamic here before moving the bridge.

That's just me though; but something shrunk-bent-grew or fell into a black hole here.

GregDunn · #5 02-11-2011, 10:48 AM

I've seen defective strings cause this more than once. If the string doesn't "stretch" evenly throughout its whole length, the intonation can be off by quite a bit. This is one reason why the saddles can be moved at all. The other is to allow for differences in harmonics between types of strings so you can tune them accurately.

If the string is OK, the 12th fret should be almost exactly midway between the nut and the saddle witness point.

C.Linton · #6 02-11-2011, 11:27 AM

Yeah, I would try different strings before I would try moving anyhting.

hendrixbikedog · #7 02-11-2011, 11:30 AM

I got it used so i dont know how it was treated before I got it... doesnt appear to have been abused... appears in good condition. I set my tape measure at the nut and measured down to the bridge. 34", 17" on the 12th fret(bridge still moved). Maybe this is why the guy wanted to sell it? It Intonates now and the other holes are covered. So now my question I guess is would there be any problems if the bridge doesnt sit flush in the back?

SurferJoe46 · #8 02-11-2011, 11:41 AM

Bad surface contact between the bridge and the body can be both good and bad.

Like a HM verses a standard mass bridge, it may or may not change things - but somehow I bet there's a degradation from accurate sound.

But as a sidebar -- how it was 'treated' before you got it doesn't really make sense unless he bridge was moved by someone else and you've corrected it now.

I think treatment is waxing, dropping, running over or tossing down a flight of stairs -- but moving a bridge is just counter intelligent I feel in this case.

It there aren't any other holes in the body under the bridge from a different bridge or evidence that it was moved closer to the nut - well, it just boggles my mind.

You may have 'fixed' it, but I don't think it's right.

202dy · #9 02-11-2011, 12:16 PM

Look first at witness points. After installing a string, push down hard just behind and in front of the saddle and nut. If this simple procedure is not performed the string will curve over either fixture. Rather than laying in the groove of the nut or saddle, the string will be registering (stopped) somewhere either than the leading edge. This condition can make it impossible to intonate a string.

lethargytartare · #10 02-11-2011, 12:23 PM

I share surferjoe's sense of "something else has to be going on" but for a used instrument, possibly not the most expensive thing in the world, I don't think you have any concerns going forward. If it intonates, it's fine. You can surely look and tell if the bridge is sitting flat on the body, so no concerns there. And I'm assuming you got the bridge ground wire in there still. There's certainly no risk to the instrument.

As for measuring (and this is kinda moot since you've already got things where they need to be) the measurements you really want are nut to the forward-most position of the saddles and the rear-most position -- that gives you the range of string lengths you can achieve. Other folks here could tell you, based on that, whether you've got it well positioned. You can also measure from the nut to the center of each saddle now that it's intonated -- that might be interesting to see.

And what are you using to intonate?

walterw · #11 02-11-2011, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 202dy

After installing a string, push down hard just behind and in front of the saddle and nut. If this simple procedure is not performed the string will curve over either fixture.

this.

also, when one string acts way different than the rest, needing to be adjusted well out of sync with the others, that usually means the string itself is bad.

DR strings, by any chance?

**SamanthaCay** · #12 02-11-2011, 07:04 PM

Um wow 11 posts and no one has asked if the neck is adjusted properly.
If you have enough relief or the wrong pitch of the neck angle this can also cause intonation problems.
Also as has been stated, it could be the string or an issue at one of the witness points.
I would advise that if you don’t yet understand all the parameters that go into setting up an instrument that you do your homework before messing around with things.
There is a lot of information to be found here that can help and as well you can usually take it to a professional and explain that you are looking to learn how to do your own setups and would it be ok to watch.
Most luthiers will not only oblige in this request but take the extra time to explain things as they go.
Once you get to a point where you understand all the parts of the puzzle that make a bass work, you won’t have to think about what’s causing what and how to fix it, you’ll just know.
None the less though I’m glad to see you are interested in learning.
And wish you the best of luck,
Samantha.

SurferJoe46 · #13 02-11-2011, 07:21 PM

I don't follow that logic.

Any neck twist would manifest itself in fret buzz unless the relief was so high you could use the bass for a slide-Dobro.

The fact is that the other strings would also be pretty far out of intonation if the bridge was too far forward or aft - so I'll tend to stay with a neck that MAY be twisted, but even that cannot change the intonation of just one string so far the the bridge has to be moved to compensate.

Remember this person moved the bridge a total of 1/2 inch. That won't alleviate a twisted neck problem.

**SamanthaCay** · #14 02-11-2011, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

I don't follow that logic.

Any neck twist would manifest itself in fret buzz unless the relief was so high you could use the bass for a slide-Dobro.

The fact is that the other strings would also be pretty far out of intonation if the bridge was too far forward or aft - so I'll tend to stay with a neck that MAY be twisted, but even that cannot change the intonation of just one string so far the the bridge has to be moved to compensate.

Remember this person moved the bridge a total of 1/2 inch. That won't alleviate a twisted neck problem.

I didn’t say anything about a twisted neck nor did I imply it.
I simply referred to the fact that it is possible that with enough relief or the wrong pitch of the neck angle it is possible to have the intonation be off.
Also I would like to remind you that he also didn’t mention how the other strings where set and whether or not they where set back further then normal, nor have we seen any pictures of said bridge.
So with that I would say that this could just as likely be a neck issue as any other.

SurferJoe46 · #15 02-11-2011, 07:47 PM

Well - we'll prolly never know - but I disagree.

A half inch is not a normal intonation problem nor a neck problem unless it looks like a Jai Alai basket which would be pretty obvious even to a n00b.

**SamanthaCay** · #16 02-11-2011, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

Well - we'll prolly never know - but I disagree.

A half inch is not a normal intonation problem nor a neck problem unless it looks like a Jai Alai basket which would be pretty obvious even to a n00b.

Right but give it a bad neck angle, heaver gage strings, a tad bit of relief, a dud string and a bad witness point and you’re there and then some!
So to clarify.
I’m not trying to imply that it’s most likely one problem over another In fact It most likely is a combination of things that are causing the problem.
I mentioned neck issues as they are common and can be a contributing factor to the intonation being off.

**SamanthaCay** · #17 02-11-2011, 08:16 PM

Also on second thought I have had people bring me basses that had as you stated a neck that looked like Jai Alai basket and ask to have their intonation set and to there surprise I adjusted the truss rod first.
I had a kid bring me a less paul once that had a broken pot because he thought to remove the knob he just needed to turn it really hard.
So yeah for all we know it could be any verity of things but what we do know is that it was most likely not that the factory put the bridge in the wrong place.

JLS · #18 02-12-2011, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buchananbass

Also on second thought I have had people bring me basses that had as you stated a neck that looked like Jai Alai basket and ask to have their intonation set and to there surprise I adjusted the truss rod first.
I had a kid bring me a less paul once that had a broken pot because he thought to remove the knob he just needed to turn it really hard.
So yeah for all we know it could be any verity of things but what we do know is that it was most likely not that the factory put the bridge in the wrong place.

I'm glad I had finished my coffee, when I read the broken pot anecdote, above!

One of my favorites, from when I repaired in a music store:

"My guitar/bass sounds all distorted, when I plug it in".

"Have you checked your battery?"

"What battery?"

hendrixbikedog · #19 02-12-2011, 05:50 PM

Well I moved the bridge back and while setting intonation there seemed to be enough saddle room on the bridge this time. The first thing I did when I got the bass was put on new strings so maybe I didn't stretch them enough first before checking intonation.

The holes that I added when moving the bridge are covered up and it was fun to have the courage to take it apart... even better that it still works now that Im done with that