My intonation is weird

KPRott · #1 01-08-2010, 10:24 AM

I had to intonate my Thunderbird last night. I followed instructions, I tuned to E standard, with a tuner, and tried to match the 12th fret on each string to the open note, using the tuner.

I sat there for 45 minutes on each string and finally managed to get it within a hair of being perfect. It sounds fine in standard and I'm satisfied for now until I can get it professionally set up.

However, as soon as I drop to E flat, which I need to do since that's what the majority of the bands songs are in, it's all off again. None of my other basses have this problem though, and they're all intonated perfectly.

So am I doing something wrong, or is it the bass? If it is me, what do I do to remedy it?

Chasarms · #2 01-08-2010, 10:57 AM

When you drop tune a semi-tone, are you stilling getting a clean, clear ringing note that is simply out of tune, or do you get some odd 'warbling' overtones, an odd chorusing effect or something of the sort?

grifff · #3 01-08-2010, 11:03 AM

Time to get a 5 string

Just kidding.

sevenyearsdown · #4 01-08-2010, 11:03 AM

I haven't played in any alternate tunings for years, but when I did - always set them up using that particular tuning. I would recommend that you do the same.

KPRott · #5 01-08-2010, 11:18 AM

Quote:

When you drop tune a semi-tone, are you stilling getting a clean, clear ringing note that is simply out of tune, or do you get some odd 'warbling' overtones, an odd chorusing effect or something of the sort?

I get clear notes, and my open strings are in tune, but when I fret a note, it's off.

Quote:

I haven't played in any alternate tunings for years, but when I did - always set them up using that particular tuning. I would recommend that you do the same

.

I did think of that, but we go from standard to half step down when we do covers. I figured intonating to E flat would throw standard tuning off.

Poon · #6 01-08-2010, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sevenyearsdown

I haven't played in any alternate tunings for years, but when I did - always set them up using that particular tuning. I would recommend that you do the same.

That's actually what the OP should do. Basses or Guitars that are drop tuned or tuned in an alternate tuning, should be intonated in that tuning.

Also, use the 12th Fret Harmonic vs. the 12th Fret to gauge intonation.

KPRott · #7 01-08-2010, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poon

That's actually what the OP should do. Basses or Guitars that are drop tuned or tuned in an alternate tuning, should be intonated in that tuning.

Also, use the 12th Fret Harmonic vs. the 12th Fret to gauge intonation.

So instead of matching the fretted 12th fret to the open string, I should match a 12th fret harmonic to the fretted 12th fret?

Poon · #8 01-08-2010, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KPRott

So instead of matching the fretted 12th fret to the open string, I should match a 12th fret harmonic to the fretted 12th fret?

You can do either...but the 12th fret harmonic is the same as the open string, but with bass in particular, it helps with some tuners that don't register as accurately because of the wave form and speed. One of my Luthier teachers explained the physics of this to me one time and it went something along the lines of the 12th fret harmonic oscillates at twice the frequency of the open string so it sends a more consistent signal to the tuner.

It's always worked for me in setups.

reedo35 · #9 01-08-2010, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grifff

Time to get a 5 string

Just kidding.

Or Not...That's what I ended up doing.

JustOpenYourMind · #10 01-08-2010, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poon

That's actually what the OP should do. Basses or Guitars that are drop tuned or tuned in an alternate tuning, should be intonated in that tuning.

Also, use the 12th Fret Harmonic vs. the 12th Fret to gauge intonation.

That is absolutly false,

The 12th fret harmonic is always in tune with the open string no matter how the intonation is set, it's physics of the string. Also to have the harmonic exactly in tune you have to place your finger exactly on the right spot by a few millimeters, otherwise the note of the harmonic might be sligthly off.

The only good way to do it is open string vs. fretted 12th fret.

Poon · #11 01-08-2010, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustOpenYourMind

That is absolutly false,

The 12th fret harmonic is always in tune with the open string no matter how the intonation is set, it's physics of the string. Also to have the harmonic exactly in tune you have to place your finger exactly on the right spot by a few millimeters, otherwise the note of the harmonic might be sligthly off.

The only good way to do it is open string vs. fretted 12th fret.

It's always worked for me with a Peterson Strobe. Maybe my finger placement is really good then.

JustOpenYourMind · #12 01-08-2010, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poon

It's always worked for me with a Peterson Strobe. Maybe my finger placement is really good then.

I thought you meant to intonate the 12th fret harmonic to the open string, it's a common misconception, I heard it often.

Tuning the 12th fret to the 12th fret harmonic will work, but you bring in more variables that could lead to a bad intonation, like I said, finger placement, how hard your press on the string etc. then you would just intonating to the open string.

But like I said, both methods work.

James Judson · #13 01-08-2010, 01:33 PM

Both methods work ok. The advantage of 12th fret and harmonic is they are the same note (ie: same frequency).

In the olden days when tuners were first invented they did not work well on bass cuz they couldn't latch on to that low note well. I think those days are pretty much over.

There is a lot of controversy about using open strings, harmonics, tuners etc to set intonation but if you study music long enough you will eventually learn about just intonation vs equal temperament and come to the conclusion that perfect doesn't exist.

My guitarist intonates to the open string (lets say E) then intonates to F then F# etc etc and gets the intonation "perfect". He always sounds great and arguing with him would accomplish ??????

JJ

YMMV

Solarmist · #14 01-09-2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KPRott

So instead of matching the fretted 12th fret to the open string, I should match a 12th fret harmonic to the fretted 12th fret?

Absolutely

Tune the bass with the tuner - then check the 12th fret note with the 12th fret harmonic. If the fretted note is sharp of the harmonic - move the saddle back towards the bridge. If the fretted note is flat of the harmonic - move the saddle forward towards the nut. Right out of the book.

**lowendfriend** · #15 01-09-2010, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poon

You can do either...but the 12th fret harmonic is the same as the open string, but with bass in particular, it helps with some tuners that don't register as accurately because of the wave form and speed. One of my Luthier teachers explained the physics of this to me one time and it went something along the lines of the 12th fret harmonic oscillates at twice the frequency of the open string so it sends a more consistent signal to the tuner.

It's always worked for me in setups.

+1

I coarse tune with the open string, fine tune using the 12 harmonic, then fret on the 12th to determine how to adjust intonation. If it's sharp, I move the saddle away from the nut. If it's flat, I move it towards the nut.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Gary Lynch · #16 01-09-2010, 04:36 PM

Thought I'd step in to this discussion if I may. A luthiers strobe is essential if you want accurate readings.

Setting the 12th fret harmonic to the depressed 12th fret only gives you and accurate reading for that fret position. You then find (using a quality strobe) that other notes, lets say at the third fret are not spot on. Guitars and basses are a little crude that way in their constriction.

Myself I set the intonation to a happy medium and concentrate more in the areas I play often so they are not noticably out.

One more note regarding accuracy. When you do use a strobe built for set ups, you also find that setting up in playing position is different that setting the instrument up while laying on it's back. Not a lot of difference but there is a difference in the readings. These days I do my set ups with the bass sitting in playing position by use of a jig to hold the bass.

Conclusion;, if you have not set up instruments for years and do not have the equipment or training, the 12th fret harmonic and depressing the string at the 12th fret are certainly at least in the ball park.

JLS · #17 01-12-2010, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustOpenYourMind

Also to have the harmonic exactly in tune you have to place your finger exactly on the right spot by a few millimeters, otherwise the note of the harmonic might be sligthly off.
.

No, That is absolutely false.

Stuggi · #18 01-12-2010, 05:09 AM

Yes, it's absolutley false as the 12th fret harmonic actually is what's called a standing wave, and if your finger is off too much, you will just mute that wave. So if you get a note, it's gonna be the 12th fret harmonic, ie. 2x the frequency of the open string.

Then again, if your intonation is WAY off, then the 12th fret harmonic isn't gonna be right above the 12th fret.

joebar · #19 01-26-2010, 11:42 AM

intonation is a measurement of distance and has nothing to do with tuning. it should calibrate the same even when tuned down. the only time you need to reintonate is when:
A- you change the action height
B-you change the gauge of string
C- the saddles somehow shift due to changing strings etc.

if this is wrong info, someone plese elaborate for me as well

joebar · #20 01-26-2010, 11:48 AM

BTW- the 12th fret harmonic has nothing to do with intonation; the guitar could be out of whack and still ring the harmonic. you must gauge everything with fretted notes because fretting a note changes distance and that is what you trying to dial in; if you are playing an open string and then hit the 12 note harmonic, nothing has changed. the key is to get the fretted 12 to sound exactly like the harmonic (nutshell)