Neck Angle

[Truktek2]

I've been doing my own setups for a little while now, and I am happy with the results. Some of the information I've come across regarding basic setups including checking and adjusting the neck angle. My question for you guys are: Why would the neck angle change? And wouldn't shimming the neck just be masking the real problem (such as a warped neck?) And lastly, how do you check to see if the neck angle is correct anyway. Thanks in advance.

[Philbiker]

On most bolt-on basses you can use shims to change the neck angle. How would shimming mask any 'problem'? It just changes the neck angle. Lots of bolt-on basses actually have a "neck tilt" adjuster which is an easier way to accomplish the same thing that adding or removing shims does.

It is impossible to change the neck angle on bolt-on basses. - Edit - I meant it's impossible to change it on a neck-through!!!

[bassteban]

Originally Posted by Philbiker

It is impossible to change the neck angle on bolt-on basses.

I disagree- I put two pieces of business-card into the neck pocket of my Jazz 5, at the rear-most(bridgeward)end of the pocket, which slightly increased the neck angle & distance from nut to bridge- fixing the B-string's inability to intonate(it had been at the very back of the bridge but after the card trick it intonates perfectly).
A more permanent(not that I'd reccommend it)procedure would be to jig up & plane an increased angle to the heel of the neck.

[ByF]

Originally Posted by Truktek2

My question for you guys are: Why would the neck angle change? . . . And lastly, how do you check to see if the neck angle is correct anyway. Thanks in advance.

On the solid body bass, the neck angle probably won't change appreciably on its own. But you might need to change it to compensate for some other change, like a new bridge--neck shimming is often done when you run out of adjustment in the bridge and can't get the action low enough, so you could angle the neck back a little to fix the problem.

If you can achieve a set-up you like using the nut, truss rod and bridge saddles, you don't need to do anything about the neck angle.

Ed

[ByF]

I think Philbiker just made a typo--he probably meant to say that it is impossible to change the neck angle on a neck-through bass. He just described how to do it on a bolt-on bass.

Ed

[kingquasar]

I would consider adjusting the neck angle only if you can't get decent action from the saddle height adjustments. If your relief is set to your taste and you have your saddles at the topmost or bottommost of their threshold and you are still getting buzz on the neck, then (and only then) you should adjust the neck angle. But this is rarely, if ever the case.

IMO, neck angle adjustments are an artifact from the days of less strict manufacturing tolerances. 99.999% of the time, if your bass was made in the last 40 years by an even half-way decent company, you won't need to adjust the neck angle.

Techs that start throwing shims in the neck pocket IMO either a)are lazy or b)don't know what they're doing. Not only that, by losing the "coupling" of the neck wood to the body wood, you are seriously sacrificing the resonance of your instrument and losing lots of tone as a result.

-kQ

[Grissle]

Adding a Badass bridge often times means needing a neck shim also because the saddles on the BA can't get anywhere near as low as a stock bridge. And done correctly with a tapered shim won't sacrifice any tone or sustain.

[bassteban]

Originally Posted by kingquasar

Techs that start throwing shims in the neck pocket IMO either a)are lazy or b)don't know what they're doing. Not only that, by losing the "coupling" of the neck wood to the body wood, you are seriously sacrificing the resonance of your instrument and losing lots of tone as a result.

-kQ

The guy I learned this from(Woody Boyd, Sacramento)is a luthier(as opposed to *tech* )- he did it to my 73 Precision because it had an early BA-1 set into the body, w/the saddles set as low as possible, resulting in the allen screws protruding menacingly into right-hand territory. Again- 2 business cards' thickness did a world of good, w/no discernable tonal difference. I did the job meself on the Jazz 5- also, no tonal diff beyond a now-finely intonating B. NOT a fix-all, but it did fix two basses of mine.

[king_biscuit]

Originally Posted by bassteban

I disagree- I put two pieces of business-card into the neck pocket of my Jazz 5, at the rear-most(bridgeward)end of the pocket, which slightly increased the neck angle & distance from nut to bridge- fixing the B-string's inability to intonate(it had been at the very back of the bridge but after the card trick it intonates perfectly).
A more permanent(not that I'd reccommend it)procedure would be to jig up & plane an increased angle to the heel of the neck.

I suspect Philbiker meant it's impossible to change the neck angle on neck throughs.

[bassteban]

Originally Posted by king_biscuit

I suspect Philbiker meant it's impossible to change the neck angle on neck throughs.

Oh. OK.
Nice talking w/you all, then.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by kingquasar

, by losing the "coupling" of the neck wood to the body wood, you are seriously sacrificing the resonance of your instrument and losing lots of tone as a result.

-kQ

Nah...done it many times. Can't tell. I've put 'em in, and I've taken 'em out, no difference. If it's bolted on tightly, you're fine. The surface area is meaningless for tone/sustain. Go ahead, disagree, I don't care. I've done it enough times to know.
I do agree that a tapered shim is best. Helps prevent movement by increasing friction, and also discourages 'Fenderitis,' or rising heel we've all come to know and love(at least us Fender guys).
Another, lesser known reason to adjust neck angle is to correct an intonation issue, where you have run out of bridge adjustment(probably due to incorrect initial assembly). You can gain back a surprising amount of intonation adjustment at the bridge this way.
Another reason is some folks prefer more, or less, distance between the strings and body. You can tilt the neck for this, and then readjust the bridge to wind up with the same fretting action as before the tilt.

[mr.mow]

Slightly OT question here, how does one make a proper angled shim.. my 67 Yamaha bridge saddles can't go any lower and the action is like 4ft off the fretboard!
I've already jammed a couple of business cards in there.. but it needs more.

[iammr2]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

Nah...done it many times. Can't tell. I've put 'em in, and I've taken 'em out, no difference. If it's bolted on tightly, you're fine. The surface area is meaningless for tone/sustain. Go ahead, disagree, I don't care. I've done it enough times to know.
I do agree that a tapered shim is best. Helps prevent movement by increasing friction, and also discourages 'Fenderitis,' or rising heel we've all come to know and love(at least us Fender guys).
Another, lesser known reason to adjust neck angle is to correct an intonation issue, where you have run out of bridge adjustment(probably due to incorrect initial assembly). You can gain back a surprising amount of intonation adjustment at the bridge this way.
Another reason is some folks prefer more, or less, distance between the strings and body. You can tilt the neck for this, and then readjust the bridge to wind up with the same fretting action as before the tilt.

+1 dmusic

I've put 'em in and taken 'em out. Right now I'm of the opinion that you can get a better setup using them. Seems to me that it brings the bridge into a more usable configuration(allows more adjustment both ways). Also read in the Guitar Player repair guide that the necks on guitars are supposed to be a few degrees off. How does this apply to basses? I don't know. Nevertheless, it is a bass GUITAR.

Just finished off two P basses this evening working with shims and truss adjustments. Very happy with the results.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by iammr2

Guitar Player repair guide that the necks on guitars are supposed to be a few degrees off. How does this apply to basses? I don't know.

It doesn't apply to anything- it's voodoo.

[iammr2]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

It doesn't apply to anything- it's voodoo.

That's why I my black cat bone with me. It worked too!

[kingquasar]

I guess we'll just have to disagree here.

But I do want to qualify that every "reason" for shims presented here goes to further my points. For instance, if you can't intonate the bass, the better option would be to reset the bridge. The lazy option is to throw in a shim. Regarding saddle-height issues, every example presented involves an aftermaket bridge. To make up for a under-researched mod, a shim is thrown in.

I know I'm being harsh here. But having read through these forums these past couple nights, it strikes me that (especially younger) posters just want to try everything that they read here as though it's going to make some magic improvement to an already decent instrument. More often than not these adjusments or mods are done just for the sake of doing them, not for any REAL reason.

I will admit that there is a place for neck shims. But it is extremely rare and should only be used as a last ditch effort and usually should only done done as a temporary fix until you can get the bass properly fixed.

-kQ

[iammr2]

Originally Posted by kingquasar

I guess we'll just have to disagree here.

But I do want to qualify that every "reason" for shims presented here goes to further my points. For instance, if you can't intonate the bass, the better option would be to reset the bridge. The lazy option is to throw in a shim. Regarding saddle-height issues, every example presented involves an aftermaket bridge. To make up for a under-researched mod, a shim is thrown in.

The bridges were stock. They would also intonate but we were just trying to get a better feel, setup, whatever.

Originally Posted by kingquasar

...it strikes me that (especially younger) posters just want to try everything that they read here as though it's going to make some magic improvement to an already decent instrument. More often than not these adjusments or mods are done just for the sake of doing them, not for any REAL reason.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by kingquasar

I will admit that there is a place for neck shims. But it is extremely rare and should only be used as a last ditch effort and usually should only done done as a temporary fix until you can get the bass properly fixed.

-kQ

That's why Lakies come stock from the factory with them? Fenders have come stock with them in the past. I don't know about today.

Yup, we disagree here.

[kingquasar]

Originally Posted by iammr2

That's why Lakies come stock from the factory with them?

They didn't when I worked there.

-kQ

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by kingquasar

I will admit that there is a place for neck shims. But it is extremely rare and should only be used as a last ditch effort and usually should only done done as a temporary fix until you can get the bass properly fixed.

-kQ

OK, but what if the neck pocket/neck heel angles simply require it? Reshape the pocket or heel? Risky business, easy to screw up.
Re-set the bridge? You'd rather drill new holes than simply insert a small shim? Well OK, but I wouldn't.
Heck, my Modulus Q4 came from the factory with a shim, to get the action where it needs to be. I bought it brand-spanking new- nobody messed with it. If a high-end brand like Modulus has to use one now and then, I think we can be forgiven for doing the same.

[Philbiker]

Originally Posted by kingquasar

I would consider adjusting the neck angle only if you can't get decent action from the saddle height adjustments. If your relief is set to your taste and you have your saddles at the topmost or bottommost of their threshold and you are still getting buzz on the neck, then (and only then) you should adjust the neck angle. But this is rarely, if ever the case.

IMO, neck angle adjustments are an artifact from the days of less strict manufacturing tolerances. 99.999% of the time, if your bass was made in the last 40 years by an even half-way decent company, you won't need to adjust the neck angle.

Techs that start throwing shims in the neck pocket IMO either a)are lazy or b)don't know what they're doing. Not only that, by losing the "coupling" of the neck wood to the body wood, you are seriously sacrificing the resonance of your instrument and losing lots of tone as a result.

-kQ

I completely disagree with every word of this post. Being able to fine-tune the neck angle is IMO a major design feature, an advantage, for bolt-on basses.

We're dealing with wood joints with massive heavy bolts which are completely sufficient for transfer of vibration from body to neck. Not joining furniture - in the case of a set neck it's like joining furniture, but not for bolt-on, and set neck makes shimming substantially more difficult.