Neck relief question - post re-assembly

bunkaroo · #1 12-12-2011, 10:56 AM

I just had my Skyline 55-64 refinished by Wilkins Guitars in CA. The action seemed a little too low before I shipped it, and when I got it back it seemed even lower. I'm sure going from CA to IL in the winter didn't help.

Looking at the neck it definitely looked too straight, and using a capo at the 1st and holding down the last fret, my scientific measurement tool (business card) was pushing the string.

So I started loosening the truss rod 1/4" turn at a time. Ater 1/4" turn I'd leave it sit for a couple hours. Over the past few days I feel like I've loosened close to a full turn, and I'm still getting buzzing at the 7th fret and above. It also feels like there's no resistance at all when I loosen it.

Is it possible it's loosened as much as it can be? The adjustments I've made have helped but I would have expected a bigger change for the amount of turning I've done.

THand · #2 12-12-2011, 11:05 AM

It sounds like once you had a little relief in the neck, you should have adjusted the action at the bridge. Also, If they did a refinish, it is possible that something may be in the neck pocket acting like a shim and giving you the buzzing. Either way, don't adjust you action with the truss rod....hopefully you didn't unscrew it from it's anchor. See if it will tighten up a little, just to be sure you still are on threads. If so check the neck pocket and be sure it's clean. Be sure the neck is on tight. Then check to see if you have some relief....then adjust you action at the bridge.

bunkaroo · #3 12-12-2011, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THand

It sounds like once you had a little relief in the neck, you should have adjusted the action at the bridge. Also, If they did a refinish, it is possible that something may be in the neck pocket acting like a shim and giving you the buzzing. Either way, don't adjust you action with the truss rod....hopefully you didn't unscrew it from it's anchor. See if it will tighten up a little, just to be sure you still are on threads. If so check the neck pocket and be sure it's clean. Be sure the neck is on tight. Then check to see if you have some relief....then adjust you action at the bridge.

OK thanks. I think I did try a little tightening earlier just to make sure it was still on there.

I was looking at the bridge already but I knew the neck was straighter tan it was before so that's why I started there. The saddles are at the correct radius already so hopefully bring them all up uniformly is good enough. This one will probably have a date with my shop guy anyway since I have to go there to have a nut replaced on another bass.

Question on having "some relief". I was under the impression fretting the string at the 1st and last takes the saddle height out of the equation - is that true? If so I think I have the right amount of relief now but it could probably be tightened a little more just to make sure I didn't over-loosen it.

THand · #4 12-12-2011, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunkaroo

OK thanks. I think I did try a little tightening earlier just to make sure it was still on there.

I was looking at the bridge already but I knew the neck was straighter tan it was before so that's why I started there. The saddles are at the correct radius already so hopefully bring them all up uniformly is good enough. This one will probably have a date with my shop guy anyway since I have to go there to have a nut replaced on another bass.

Question on having "some relief". I was under the impression fretting the string at the 1st and last takes the saddle height out of the equation - is that true? If so I think I have the right amount of relief now but it could probably be tightened a little more just to make sure I didn't over-loosen it.

Yes, it takes the bridge and the nut out of it, and uses the string as a straight edge. I usually put a capo on the first fret, fret the last fret with one hand and measure with my free hand. How much relief depends on your individual neck, but with a skyline, I would think the fretjob is good enough to have the neck pretty straight, so your business card should be a good starting point.

96tbird · #5 12-12-2011, 12:25 PM

Your action was low, why touch the truss? The saddles set action, not the trussrod. A neck isn't too straight if it plays well. If the action was too low, raise it.

bunkaroo · #6 12-12-2011, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96tbird

Your action was low, why touch the truss? The saddles set action, not the trussrod. A neck isn't too straight if it plays well. If the action was too low, raise it.

I started with the truss rod because there was too much relief - see my comment above about fretting the 1st and last.

96tbird · #7 12-12-2011, 02:15 PM

Sorry,No, you said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunkaroo

I just had my Skyline 55-64 refinished by Wilkins Guitars in CA. The action seemed a little too low before I shipped it, and when I got it back it seemed even lower. I'm sure going from CA to IL in the winter didn't help.

Looking at the neck it definitely looked too straight, and using a capo at the 1st and holding down the last fret, my scientific measurement tool (business card) was pushing the string.

I am only going on what you said. You said first the action was too low, then secondly, not enough relief (neck too straight). The business card wouldn't fit under the string. I am saying just because the neck is very straight doesn't mean it won't play well if the frets are leveled well; a Lakland will usually have exceptional fretwork. Lakland specs for relief is .008", thinner than a business card (.01") and your business card slightly lifted the string. Seems close to me, a tiny bit of lift.

I am saying why didn't you raise the saddles (to your preference) first and attend to your action, your first concern (as quoted above). At that point, see if it needs more relief. If needs more then set it and readjust the action.

I know that you are supposed to set relief first on a setup but you have to first see if the current relief is good at the action you want. You need a baseline.

Anyway, loosening had no effect on increasing relief, correct? Slowly add that turn back in and begin again.

bunkaroo · #8 12-12-2011, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96tbird

Sorry,No, you said this:

I am only going on what you said. You said first the action was too low, then secondly, not enough relief (neck too straight). The business card wouldn't fit under the string. I am saying just because the neck is very straight doesn't mean it won't play well if the frets are leveled well; a Lakland will usually have exceptional fretwork. Lakland specs for relief is .008", thinner than a business card (.01") and your business card slightly lifted the string. Seems close to me, a tiny bit of lift.

I am saying why didn't you raise the saddles (to your preference) first and attend to your action, your first concern (as quoted above). At that point, see if it needs more relief. If needs more then set it and readjust the action.

I know that you are supposed to set relief first on a setup but you have to first see if the current relief is good at the action you want. You need a baseline.

Anyway, loosening had no effect on increasing relief, correct? Slowly add that turn back in and begin again.

Well forgetting about the neck being too straight or not, when I checked for relief it seemed there was not enough. The strings were almost pinned to the fretboard when I fretted the 1st and last. I am aware you don't adjust the neck for "action", but at the same time I thought it was pretty obvious the neck had moved some on me.

And loosening did affect it. Every fret all the way up to the 1st was buzzing at first. Now it's just the 7th and above. But now it seems like adjustments are doing less so I think I may have loosened as much as I can. Ultimately it sounds like I needed a combo of relief and saddle adjustment to get this where I want it. I am going to tighten up the rod a bit later and then adjust the saddles and see where that leaves me.

I should also note that I am not the first owner of this bass, but there was a "Plek'd at Lakland tag" in the gig bag when I got it so I think it was sent to Chicago to be leveled after it was purchased.

96tbird · #9 12-12-2011, 02:32 PM

I dont know if you have seen this, but it may help. Carl is the head luthier at Lakland. Lakland Bass Setup With Carl Pedigo (Part 1 of 2) - YouTube

bunkaroo · #10 12-12-2011, 02:34 PM

I don't think I've seen that specific video - I'll check it out. Thanks!

96tbird · #11 12-12-2011, 02:50 PM

Cool, I think the double carbon reinforcements in the neck add a lot of stiffness. The strings are going to have a lot less effect on those necks than a plain wooden neck. So loosening didn't have a lot of effect on yours.

Lee H · #12 12-12-2011, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96tbird

A neck isn't too straight if it plays well. .

That was my thought

THand · #13 12-12-2011, 03:11 PM

I still think it would be wise to check the neck pocket and be sure the neck is seated correctly in the pocket, since it apparently became worse after being sent off for a refinish.

96tbird · #14 12-12-2011, 03:17 PM

Another log to throw on this fire:
1. It was PLEK'ed at Lakland, so it is likely safe to assume their "factory fresh" specs were used for relief before it was thrown into the machine. Set your relief as per the Lakland video. Then set your action. Then see where you're at.
2. Your refinishing outfit had the bass apart, is the neck re-aligned properly? It MAY cause trouble or not, but double check it. Just to eliminate all variables.

96tbird · #15 12-12-2011, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THand

I still think it would be wise to check the neck pocket and be sure the neck is seated correctly in the pocket, since it apparently became worse after being sent off for a refinish.

Good point, if a drip of varnish got in the pocket, that would certainly cause problems.

bunkaroo · #16 12-12-2011, 03:23 PM

Wouldn't I have to take the neck off to check the pocket? I don't think I'm there yet. I'm going to check the video and go from there.

96tbird · #17 12-12-2011, 03:25 PM

Well for now just have a look at the joint on the treble side and make sure that neck looks well seated. If you see a hint of a gap, you likely will have to start there.

bunkaroo · #18 12-12-2011, 03:32 PM

OK will do. Worst thing is I am working all night so I probably won't get to mess with this until tomorrow night.

THand · #19 12-13-2011, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96tbird

Good point, if a drip of varnish got in the pocket, that would certainly cause problems.

Not only that, but a refinish takes a little time. Whoever put it back together may be in the habit of putting a small shim (even a piece of tape) in the neck pocket, thinking it would make it play even better...and may not remember that it didn't have one when disassembled.

bunkaroo · #20 12-13-2011, 12:24 PM

Guys, Pat Wilkins did the refinish. He does all US Lakland from what I understand. The neck is on tight, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't garner all the positive buzz he gets here at TB without doing something right.

As I mentioned before the strings were already buzzing some before I even sent it in so my setup guy is probably the one who brought things too low.

I was able to spend a few minutes last night with it and I at least confirmed the nut is still attached to the rod as wen I turned it clockwise I did get the expected resistance. I'm going to work on the saddle height tonight and see where that leaves me.