Go Back   TalkBass Forums > Bass Guitar Forums > Bass Guitar Forums > Hardware, Setup & Repair [BG]
Register Rules/FAQ/CUP Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Supporting Membership
Thank You

Latest Supporting Member
Donate to Upgrade Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 11-14-2008, 08:55 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Need help on fretless setup, trying to enhance 'mwah'

Sign in to disble this ad
I'm tweaking the setup on a new SX fretless - I can get a nice tone from the D and G strings, the E is full but lacking mwah a bit. (by the way I hate that term)

I'm really struggling with the A string - It sounds choked, no sustain, dull in comparison to the other strings - open or fretted. Higher action helps this some, but eliminates all mwah. Any ideas? Is it possible the fretboard has an imperfection interferring with string vibration? Should I be looking at the saddle? Any help diagnosing and correcting is appreciated.

The best way to describe what I'm hearing is to imagine a 2 yr old roundwound mixed into a fresh set of strings, and adding a foam mute to that string to boot.

I've got the neck set to flat with a tiny, tiny, tiny bit of relief - didn't care for tone set to totally flat. Action is quite low all around. Pickup height doesn't seem to be an issue as the other strings all balance perfectly tonewise.
  #2  
Old 11-14-2008, 09:47 AM
Registered User

Brownchicken Browncow
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
maybe you have a dead A ?
__________________
__________________________________________
__________________________________________
__________________________________________
  #3  
Old 11-14-2008, 10:09 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
you know, someone else suggested i replace the factory strings - will do and report back!
  #4  
Old 11-14-2008, 10:35 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
That's a good start anyway.

That "mwah" is usually created by getting a very slight bow (almost perfectly flat but Not Quite) and adjusting the action accordingly. There might be a subtle twist in the neck preventing this (although I doubt it on a new bass).

I've seen new fretless basses that needed to have the fingerboard planed a bit so that all the notes came through well. It's a thought.

You might need a tad more relief in the neck and a bit lower action to compensate - you might get your tone a bit better.
__________________
THUS ENDETH THIS THREAD. <-- So sayeth Fretlessman71, a.k.a. "Thread Killer"

http://www.michaelolsononline.comCongratulations - you found the secret message!Colorado Club #6
  #5  
Old 11-14-2008, 10:53 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by fretlessman71 View Post
That's a good start anyway.

That "mwah" is usually created by getting a very slight bow (almost perfectly flat but Not Quite) and adjusting the action accordingly. There might be a subtle twist in the neck preventing this (although I doubt it on a new bass).

I've seen new fretless basses that needed to have the fingerboard planed a bit so that all the notes came through well. It's a thought.

You might need a tad more relief in the neck and a bit lower action to compensate - you might get your tone a bit better.

Thanks, I've experimented with relief and string height a bit and found what I like. It's just that darned A string, I'll try new strings and see what happens. The planing though is something I was thinking but couldn't put together the word to question it.
  #6  
Old 11-14-2008, 10:58 AM
jgroh's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Supporting Member
I actually had the reverse...too much mwahh. I adjusted the truss rod a little and that raised the strings up a bit. So now I can get mwahh whenever I want but its not every note I hit.
  #7  
Old 11-14-2008, 06:52 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihateusernames View Post
you know, someone else suggested i replace the factory strings - will do and report back!
Get rid of those aweful SX strings.
Set you action so your string height is even from top to bottom.
Intonate by checking the open string to the 12th fret marker
right on top of the marker.
After you've done these actions you should be good to go.
__________________
You Ain't Got That Thing, If You Ain't Got That Swing!
  #8  
Old 11-15-2008, 02:36 AM
Blues Cat's Avatar
Registered User

Endorsing:D'Addario,Genz Benz,Truth Drums,Evans,SKB,Nordstrand pu's
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Katy, Tx
Supporting Member
You're going to get less mwah on the lower strings.
  #9  
Old 11-15-2008, 07:14 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blues Cat View Post
You're going to get less mwah on the lower strings.
I thought that might be a factor on the E string, the A is still dead.

Keeping this in mind it makes sense to restring with a light gauge of string then, correct?
  #10  
Old 11-15-2008, 09:54 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: North Houston
It's an SX bass. Maybe that's part of the problem. Good value for the money but a fretless needs to be very well made and maintained to get a great tone.

Like others said, beyond the d and g strings you aren't going to get much mwah no matter what you do. Perhaps it's the way you have your preamp eq'ed? Try boosting the mids a little to make the A string come out a little more. Regardless, if you haven't replaced the factory strings yet you should do that. I can't imagine SX is spending much on strings. I bet that will make a world of difference. Go lighter if you want. Maybe it will help.

Keep in mind that the mwah doesn't just happen. If you haven't played a lot of fretless it takes some time to get the vibrato down which will give you more mwah and expressiveness.
__________________
l 5 String Fretless l 6 String | Rack Full of Complex Things l You Can Assume It Is "In My Opinion" l

Last edited by perfektspace6 : 11-15-2008 at 09:56 AM.
  #11  
Old 11-30-2008, 08:27 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
okay, switched to nickel roundwounds and no improvement on mwah. nice growl, but very little mwah.

very little relief, super low string height.

now what?

Last edited by ihateusernames : 11-30-2008 at 08:32 PM.
  #12  
Old 12-10-2008, 09:26 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by fretlessman71 View Post
That's a good start anyway.

That "mwah" is usually created by getting a very slight bow (almost perfectly flat but Not Quite) and adjusting the action accordingly. There might be a subtle twist in the neck preventing this (although I doubt it on a new bass).

I've seen new fretless basses that needed to have the fingerboard planed a bit so that all the notes came through well. It's a thought.

You might need a tad more relief in the neck and a bit lower action to compensate - you might get your tone a bit better.
+1
An almost flat neck is a good starting point.
  #13  
Old 12-10-2008, 11:44 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
lower action is more a component of the "mwah" than the relief

having the correct relief is important but the relief would be the same regardless of the action

an overly bowed or concave relief will not work by definition
__________________
www.myspace.com/lambro9
  #14  
Old 12-10-2008, 12:49 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: N / East Texas
Maybe a manufacturer defect in the A-string bridge saddle? Can you swap the saddles around from the D or G to the A for comparison?
  #15  
Old 12-10-2008, 12:51 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Seattle
Mike Lull does the inital setups on my H.G. Thor-epoxied/no-trussrod fretless and does a nice job: he knows I like lots of mwah.

However, I always take it home, play it for a while and end up minutely tweaking the saddle height - and I DO mean "minutely".

I will go as little as 1/8 of a turn of the saddle height screws at at time until I get the string height where I want it for max mwah... usually this process stretches out over a couple of days.

I find this "very-fine-tuning" process to be the most crucial for me to get the sound/action I want.

It takes patience.

YMMV

p.s. - when strung up, the neck is almost-but-not-quite-perfectly straight... I also disregard/give up on any perceived need for "even action"/whatever/etc. across the strings - all I care about is getting mwah. JMHO
__________________
"We become good only at that which we practice every day" - Auguste Rodin

Last edited by deckard : 12-11-2008 at 08:06 AM.
  #16  
Old 12-11-2008, 04:17 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loughborough, UK
I see no-one has suggested you take a look at the nut.

Fretless needs the nut to be cut quite low - almost on to the fingerboard, but not quite. Some say the thickness of a business card is about right.

Also, the poor A string response just might be due to a badly cut channel in the nut. Check it out & make sure the groove slopes downward toward the head and has a good witness-point at the front.
  #17  
Old 12-11-2008, 05:09 AM
WarThumb's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Norway
Supporting Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffByrne View Post
I see no-one has suggested you take a look at the nut.

Fretless needs the nut to be cut quite low - almost on to the fingerboard, but not quite. Some say the thickness of a business card is about right.

Also, the poor A string response just might be due to a badly cut channel in the nut. Check it out & make sure the groove slopes downward toward the head and has a good witness-point at the front.
Once fretted, the nut does not longer matter for mwah right? As this is a both fretted and open string problem I don't think it is the nut.
__________________
Warmoth Gecko 6|-83 Squier Fretless P/J | Clement #173 Jon fretless|Warmoth Club #8| The Mediocre Bassist Club #42|Clement Club #47
  #18  
Old 12-11-2008, 07:05 AM
RedsFan75's Avatar
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Cincinnati
Supporting Member
Snipped from a post on the boards at FretlessBass.com

Not my post but what I used to do a lot of setup on my fretless.


********* Disclaimer **********
What ever work, or modifications, you make to your instrument(s) is yours exclusively. I do not warrant that any measurement or modification that I make to my basses is correct for you or your bass. I am only offering my opinion and experience.
*****************************

In general, Nearly straight fingerboard + Low Nut + Saddle height (just right) = Mwah sound and easy to play. Strings contribute to Mwah too, but it is up to you to find what you like. I use D'Addario EXP170-5SL (coated nickle roundwound, super long).

Nut filing is nearly the last part of setup so I advise that you get experience doing all phases of setup before cutting or filing your first nut.

For relief, read other sources on the subject, get informed on proper neck relief adjustment. I prefer relief as flat as possible for fretless bass. DO NOT FORCE the tension adjustment nut. If your neck will not approach straight without using excessive force do not attempt to over torque it. Read up on using a beam and clamp to put your neck into backbow, or to the straightness you desire, then adjust the tensioning nut. DON'T FORCE IT!!!!! So what is forcing the tensioning nut? Well, I have not measured the torque I use but would venture the information is out there somewhere. The guideline I use is this. If I estimate the torque I am exerting is sufficient to compress wood fibers, then I have used too much force. Also, the tensioning nut tends to bind when excessive force is used. If the nut becomes hard to turn, you have probably reached the limit.

Excessive torque on the tensioning nut can destroy a bass. This should not imped you from adjusting your neck, just become informed, and use care.

Nut filing:

Tools needed for nut filing:
Feeler gauges
Nut files for your string gauges.
Micrometer, to confirm files match strings, or are close.

If you screw up and need to cut a new nut more tools are needed.

When filing a nut slot, it is easily possible to take it too low. The right way to repair a string slot cut too low is to make an entirely new nut. However it is possible to build up the too low string slot and re-file it. Such a repair may not sound as good as a nut with full integrity but it would save the individual some work. Advice on luthier technique may be found on other sites such as Stewart-McDonald http://www.stewmac.com/nuts Read this or other authoritative information.

When filing a nut you need nut files. If you do not have the right files the bottom of the string slot will probably not be the correct diameter (gauge) for your string. String gauge in North America is usually measured in 1/1000 of inches (such as .090).

As far as I know, there is no proper specification for nut height over fingerboard. There is a minimum, and then there is everything above that minimum. The minimum differs with each instrument unless your fingerboard is absolutely perfectly straight. Very few instrument achieve, or approximate, this level of precision. Graphite/Phenolic necks such as Modulus and ZON come close, and that is what I use. My main (mag P/U) fretless is a 1988 (pre tension rod) Modulus Q5 (wide) that is rock stable and darn near perfect in straightness with my preferred strings, tuned.

Before attempting to file the nut, your neck needs to be adjusted for the relief you prefer. I like my fingerboard as flat as is possible. AND, the bridge needs to be set properly. THEN one can move on to final nut filing.

I would suggest that you get the nut close but not final. Do a check of setup in general, readjust setup, then proceed.

Keep in mind that good setup may not be achieved in one work session. Your ultimate setup might be the result of months of occasional tweaking. It could be said that setup is a recursive endeavour. On the other hand, a professional luthier who does many fretless jobs can probably get very close to ideal action in one work session. Then the weather changes and your bass may absorb humidity changing things necessitating a new set up.

With that said, my preference for string height at nut is "as low as practical", or near minimum but not actually that low. The only way to get this correct is by trial. File a thousandth, tune it up and test. File another thousandth, etc. when it plays great, sings, mwahs, and you end up playing longer than anticipated, STOP filing.

The gap between the fingerboard and strings, at the nut, on my Modulus Q5 varies with each string.

G = .014in .356mm (about the thickness of a business card)
D = .020in .508mm
A = .020in .508mm
E = .022in .559mm
B = .029in .737mm (two business cards)

If your neck has problems such as an "S" bend, a high spot, or other imperfections, these measurements will probably be too low.

These measurements do not represent the minimum, rather is where I like it. The bass Mwahs like a cat. I find this action easy to play in the first position. Since string oscillation is greater on the big strings, it follows that the gap between the fingerboard and the bottom of each string must also be successively greater.

Quote:
with a capo on the 1st and holding down the 12th what is the distance from the 7th to the string?


Since my neck is near flat, this measurement is not meaningful. See comment above regarding relief. I presume that you are interested in action height over the fingerboard. I adjust string height at each saddle measuring the gap at the highest note, or end (highest pitch, or position) of the fingerboard using a self-made white plastic tapered gauge with a mark (in ink) for my preferred action height. Move the wedge shaped (tapered) measuring device between the string and fingerboard at the highest position until contact is made. Mark using pencil, measure at the mark using a micrometer. Adjust bridge saddles until satisfied. Mark your preferred action height with ink for future reference.

On my basses this marked measurement is .085in 2.159mm for the G string. As with the nut measurement, it gets greater with larger strings. this simple device makes action setup after changing string types a snap.

Pick-up height:

Adjusting P/U height on most basses involves turning Phillips head screws to raise or lower. Be sure to use the correct size screwdriver. Some basses such as Alembics have a more complicated system but the theory of operation remains the same for all magnetic P/Us.

Several factors are involved. Are you going to be slapping this instrument? If so, you will want your P/Us a bit lower to avoid string P/U contact. Do you have active electronics? If yes then having them high for greater output is less important. Do you have heavy right hand technique? If yes then you will want the P/Us lower as with slappers.

If your right hand technique is not heavy, and you do not slap, then you will probably want your P/Us as high as is practical for better output level. The output of magnetic P/Us diminishes with the square of the distance from the inductor (oscillating string). Meaning that the difference in output between 1/8" inch distance and 1/4" is profound. It is important to adjust your P/Us to be as close to the strings as possible but far away enough that string/P/U contact is unlikely.

In my experience, P/U height does not effect tone (except when the strings hit them) but is very important to getting good output level and quality (S/N ratio), especially for passive instruments. Some may argue that there is a proximity effect emphasizing bass frequencies, but I have not found this to be true for active basses.

If you have two P/Us, the next consideration is balance between P/Us. Jaco (according to interview) seldom used his neck P/U, relying almost exclusively on the bridge P/U for his tone. So it is generally accepted that the bridge P/U is more important for fretless tone.

Most basses these days have a P/U pan control with a center detent, or a P/U selector switch with a combined (center) position that is equivalent to the pan center detent. This center position is important for gigging musicians because it can be found by touch and represents a preset tone reference point. Thus this position needs to be as hip a tone as possible. You can bias (means emphasize one P/U over the other) your combined P/U tone at center position by raising or lowering your pickups thereby changing the loudness of each.

On my fretless (mentioned above) the neck P/U is naturally louder due to greater string movement/energy so I lowered it to relatively increase the sound of the more desirable (in tone) bridge P/U. Here is how I do it. Select the bridge P/U, raise the bridge P/U as high as your technique will allow AND avoiding string to P/U contact during your most vigorous playing. If your strings hit the P/U then lower it until contact ceases.

Still on the bridge P/U. String to string loudness also needs to be adjusted. Listen to each string while uniformly playing each in succession. If the higher strings are louder then that side needs to be lowered slightly. Conversely, if the lower string are louder, that side needs to be lowered slightly. Adjust until all strings are about uniform in output. If you want to get technical, plug-in to a recorder and watch the VU meters. Some P/Us have individual pole piece adjustments, with these, use the previous for rough adjustment and turn the pole pieces for fine adjust.

Once you have determined your preferred bridge P/U height, capo (or hold down the string) at the highest position (equivalent to highest fret) and measure the gap over P/U for future reference.

Now move the P/U pan/selector to exclusively either 100% bridge, or 100% neck P/U. Move between the two and note any differences in volume. Usually the neck P/U will be louder if both are of similar winding. Some P/U sets are wound differently to compensate for this natural difference in output.

Next, put your P/U pan/selector in the center/combined position. You are probably hearing more of the neck P/U than bridge. If you have a pan control now is the time to experiment and find the hippest tone that is within 10% of the center detent, this is your bias offset. Make a mental note of this sound, or actually record it. I assume that your bias is towards the bridge P/U but it does not have to be that way. This tone is the one to attempt to replicate at the center detent by lowering (or raising (not likely)) the neck P/U.

Now set the P/U pan/selector in the center/combined position. Listen to how this sound differs from your bias offset tone. Lower the neck P/U until the sound comes closer to your bias offset tone. Often it is not possible to exactly match that sound, just get close as is possible without screwing the neck pickup so low that it is pinched against the bottom of the pickup route.

If you have a P/U selector switch and not a pan control the procedure is similar but you do not have the luxury of experimenting with a pan pot. Just trust that it is the neck P/U that needs to go lower (for fretless bass). Lower the neck P/U in the combined position until you like the sound.

Repeat the string to string balance for the neck P/U. If the P/U is bottomed out you will have to raise the side with lower output.

Best of luck to you performing set-up on your basses. There is more to it than is mentioned in this post. I hope this answers your questions.

Set-up is a DIY affair providing you have the correct tools and information.
__________________
P&W #248, Ohio Bassist #168, GK #625, LOG #390, 5 String #108, Ibanez #519 P-Bass #424, Medium Scale #29, Acoustic Bass #63
  #19  
Old 12-11-2008, 08:19 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Seattle
Just another thought:

if you have a reputable luthier in your area, take the bass to him & have him check it out and do a fretless setup - make sure you tell him you want mwah.

It would be money well-spent at this point IMHO as he could tell you of any anomalies he may find which prevent getting max mwah, and could save you some frustration.

The neck on my fretless has no trussrod (it's a wood-and-graphite laminated custom job) so there's no adjustment possible there - but I still take the bass to Mike Lull every 1 to 1 1/2 years for him to look over and set up. I don't mind the fee as Mike's expertise is well worth it.

Then, I take it home and adjust minutely to my own liking as described in my post above...

JMHO

p.s. - I get plenty of mwah on the G, D and A strings... and even get some on the E string.

Also, I find that left hand technique is also part of the equation - for just one example, I find that using more of the pad of my finger rather than just the tip coaxes out more mwah...
__________________
"We become good only at that which we practice every day" - Auguste Rodin

Last edited by deckard : 12-11-2008 at 08:30 AM.
  #20  
Old 12-27-2008, 04:13 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
More tweaking has followed this thread and it's sounding pretty nice now. I noticed some chewing of the fretboard and checked my string records. Turns out the strings I pirated from another bass are SS so those got replaced very quickly with a set of lo-rider NICKEL which is what I thought I was putting onto it in the first place.

As an aside, this is my first passive bass in what seems like forever - forgot how good passive can sound!
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Follow TalkBass on Twitter   Visit TalkBass on Facebook  

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:32 AM.




Copyright 2011 Talk Music Group Inc. All rights reserved.
Play guitar? Visit our new sister site TalkGuitar.com [beta]
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.12
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.