New tuners for my '66 Pbass?

capnjim · #1 12-09-2011, 07:55 AM

Hi there...so I have this hideous '66 P bass. Its a tad neck heavy as the body is really light. I can live with that, but the tuners really don't work well at all. Can they be dismantled and cleaned/lubricated? There is a ton of play and its kind of tough to get it in tune. I hate to change them as they are original, but this is my main player and I would like it to be easier to tune.
I sure don't want to drill any holes. So, what tuners will be a bit lighter and drop right in..or can the old ones be fixed?
Thanks

By jimmypantz at 2011-10-28

By jimmypantz at 2011-10-28

Aint she purdy???

MisterFabulous · #2 12-09-2011, 07:58 AM

Hipshot makes a replacement where you don't have to drill extra holes or anything.

Lighter? I don't know.

Great mojo on that bass...

96tbird · #3 12-09-2011, 10:13 AM

Sure you can pull them apart. Take the four screws off, slide the tuner out, take the bolt out of the gear and the tuner will be in parts.

Use a brass wire brush to clean loose rust off. If you have any bad patches, buff it with emery paper. Get a cheap paraffin candle and rub it on all parts to lube. re-assemble and install.

Don't worry about play. Just remember that you must always tune up, never down. If you shoot past pitch, drop below about 10 cents and bring it back up. tension from the string will "jam" the spur gear against the worm gear and lock it in place. It's nearly impossible at that point for the worm gear to back off (unless you touch it or hit something with it) and make you go flat. This applies to any tuner,regardless of the gear ratio. Tightening the spur gear bolt will lessen slop, but you just want it snug and it will need to be tightened from time to time.

I wouldn't put new on there, they just wouldn't fit the patina. Alternatively, you could ship the bass to me and I will dispose of it properly and safely.

Pilgrim · #4 12-09-2011, 10:19 AM

I agree with 96tbird. Disassemble, clean, re-install.

Tune UP to pitch, not down, and a bit of slack in a tuner doesn't matter.

It would be very unwise to swap tuners - if you eventually feel compelled to, get replacements that fit the exact same holes, and save the original tuners!!!

capnjim · #5 12-09-2011, 10:30 AM

Yeah, I know about tuning up, its just they are not smooth at all, and they get a bit jumpy. I'll try taking them apart, cleaning them and do that trick with the candle.
Thanks

96tbird · #6 12-09-2011, 11:23 AM

Hey, I went to your photo page and there's one pic of the back of a tuner, kinda blurry, but it looks like there is a rubber bushing under the spur gear bolt. I never have seen that. Maybe a previous owner's attempt to add / subtract friction on the gear. Maybe good, maybe bad? You might want to get rid of that. I also had a thought you could try cutting a plastic bushing from a very thin pick to place UNDER the spur gear against the base plate and see if it smoothens things out. If you try that watch that the spur isn't chewing up the worm as it will sit a bit higher. OR you might try it on the back of the plate under the string barrel. Just a thought, it may not work out.

Here's your pic.

HeavyRockBasser · #7 12-09-2011, 11:37 AM

That's freaking gorgeous! If you clean 'em up and still can't live with it, you might try changing just the spur (round part). The wear is usually more to the spur and not the worm (screw part). Guys are changing tuners all the time. You could buy a set from someone who updated a newer P or J, recently - CL or Ebay - and use just the spur. Might be integral with the post? Not sure. I haven't had one of these apart, yet. I don't think Fender has changed these much over the years. If it looks like yours, it probably is. You might want to get some more input from others, here, but that is what I'd try. But, don't do anything to change the look of your bass. Why do you think Fender is doing all of that awful relic/fake aging to their new stuff? You've got a genuine relic, there. There are "aged" tuners that you could try, but they won't look as nice as what you've got. Some things you can't duplicate. Thanks for the pix! hrb

HeavyRockBasser · #8 12-09-2011, 11:44 AM

Never seen anyone use rubber on these. I'd go back to a stainless washer. If the screw is backing out, then maybe nylon? Rubber is going to allow the two gears to push apart, I would think.

Peredur · #9 12-09-2011, 11:55 AM

Lush!

sneha1965 · #10 12-09-2011, 11:58 AM

Buy a set that match your originals and install. Keep the originals in case you decide down the line to sell your bass. I wouldn't worry about changing them since you already have a pickup and bridge mod.

96tbird · #11 12-09-2011, 11:59 AM

Yes, I can see that the steel washer is still there. Then the rubber, then the gear. Looks like the idea was tighten the screw, compress the rubber applying force to the spur gear pushing it against the base plate keeping it snug.

I think the real problem is corrosion and that rubber allowing too much movement in the assembly. Get it outta there.

capnjim · #12 12-09-2011, 12:03 PM

Thanks guys, only one tuner has the original screws and washers. I would rather keep the original tuners, maybe I'll see if I can buy just the screws and washers for the backs of the tuners.
They haven't changed the thread pattern? Will newer ones fit? I bet the rubber is there because the changed screw was too long. I never took it out. This bass was abused and neglected. I did a lot of work on it and it now plays and sounds great.
Thats a cool idea about the pick...little plastic washers might make it smoother. When they turn now, even tuning up, they kind of lurch and its tough to get them right on.
When I de-tune, I can turn 2 of them almost 1/4 turn before they even move.

96tbird · #13 12-09-2011, 12:30 PM

You know, my brand new Hipshots move quite a bit when loosening too and they are high ratio. That indicates the spur gear is tight against the plate and string tension isn't moving it much. The worm backs off till it hits the spur tooth on the other side. It's all just friction. I loosen the spur screw and the slack lessens, see?

Now, I had wondered if your screws were too long because of the rubber thing. You can go new, as long as it's not metric. You need sae threads and just determine if they are fine or coarse. If you are handy, you can cut the old screws to length, easy.

I put 5 bucks on that the rubber is really causing more trouble for you than anything.

Pilgrim · #14 12-09-2011, 12:35 PM

BTW - agreed on the paraffin from a candle - lubes without attracting dirt!

Lowbrow · #15 12-09-2011, 12:44 PM

I would just install a set of new retrofit long-stem reverse-gear tuners and put the originals in a box til needed. These are relatively cheap and very easy to find.
The bass is already far from all-original, and if it's your main player the emphasis should be on ensuring it functions properly under pressure rather than on it remaining a museum piece, IMO. Yes, you can clean 'em up and they'll probably work fine, but I'll say that I had a slippy tuner on my Road Worn and rather than turn it into a project I just bought a new set, switched out the offender, and left the other 3 in place.

96tbird · #16 12-09-2011, 01:07 PM

Likely a lot of people put too much thought into such a simple mechanism as a tuner. It's two gears and friction. That's it. The worm + spur gear combo is as used in overhead winches, cranes, etc. The (cable) tension is applied to the spur which jams against the worm. The worm really can't be forced to turn by the spur easily in this situation, by design. You will never see a spur gear driving a worm in any machine on earth, it's always the other way around. It just doesn't work, the gears will self destruct.

The trick is to get the friction just right so it operates smoothly but isn't sloppy. In the situation of a tuner, how much wear does it really ever see? Especially the chunky gears on an open gear setup.

All I am saying is that there's no use spending any money until op tries cleaning them up and see how it works out. A couple hours time, max and it may be fine. And then there's the Zen of DIY. IMHO, YMMV.

Lowbrow · #17 12-09-2011, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96tbird

Likely a lot of people put too much thought into such a simple mechanism as a tuner. It's two gears and friction. That's it. The worm + spur gear combo is as used in overhead winches, cranes, etc. The (cable) tension is applied to the spur which jams against the worm. The worm really can't be forced to turn by the spur easily in this situation, by design. You will never see a spur gear driving a worm in any machine on earth, it's always the other way around. It just doesn't work, the gears will self destruct.

The trick is to get the friction just right so it operates smoothly but isn't sloppy. In the situation of a tuner, how much wear does it really ever see? Especially the chunky gears on an open gear setup.

All I am saying is that there's no use spending any money until op tries cleaning them up and see how it works out. A couple hours time, max and it may be fine. And then there's the Zen of DIY. IMHO, YMMV.

Well, I can be one lazy SOB.

96tbird · #18 12-09-2011, 02:38 PM

I heard dat!

capnjim · #19 12-09-2011, 03:02 PM

I'm lazy and cheap! Quite the conundrum. I really would like to keep the originals, I just got a set of strings in the mail, so I guess I can work on them a bit this weekend.
Thanks everybody for all the advice, this place is great!
I'm sure I will get bored with this bass when GAS strikes and some unfortunate TB'er will end up with this old road dog.

walterw · #20 12-09-2011, 03:31 PM

if you get past the "cheap" part of the equation, a set of gotoh res-o-lites might be just the ticket. they should fit directly, and more to the point, are way lighter, and thus should help the balance.

since it's the old, light "good wood", then lightweight keys are almost a must.

(and how the hell could anybody "get bored" with a well-worn, light-weight '66 P-bass??)