Nut intonation issues

[Bassnewbie25]

Hey guys..

I am trying to set the intonation on my short scale bass Ibanez Mikro and can't get the first 4 frets right. They are sharp.

What I've done:
1) Adjusted truss rod to .381mm height at 7th fret, while capo on first fret and fretting the 17ty fret.
2) Adjusted string height at 17th fret to be 3/32'' (used fractional ruler)
3) Properly tuned each open string to 12th fret harmonic AND fretted 12th note. This is accurate.
4) I have filed the nut for each string to .559mm height at the first fret/crown.

I have read and re-read that the sharpness of the first few frets is caused by:
1) Nut too high and needs filing= I HAVE FILED TO LOWEST HEIGHT and still sharp.
2) When filing the nut create an angle to follow the string angle from the tuner to nut= DONE!
3) Pull down on the string to properly sit it on the nut "Witness it"= DONE!

If I file one fraction of a mm more, I will ruin the nut and will need a new one.

Is there a chance the the bass is messed up? Maybe the frets weren't set in with correct specs/distance and it will be impossible to adjust to avoid the sharpness?

Do not know what else I should do. Any advise?

By the way I am following John Carruthers instruction and specs to set up a bass from start to finish in the proper order.
Setting Up Your Bass Guitar: Intonation Adjustment (Step 4 of 4) - YouTube

[JLS]

Originally Posted by Bassnewbie25

Hey guys..

I am trying to set the intonation on my short scale bass Ibanez Mikro and can't get the first 4 frets right. They are sharp.

What I've done:
1) Adjusted truss rod to .381mm height at 7th fret, while capo on first fret and fretting the 17ty fret.
2) Adjusted string height at 17th fret to be 3/32'' (used fractional ruler)
3) Properly tuned each open string to 12th fret harmonic AND fretted 12th note. This is accurate.
4) I have filed the nut for each string to .559mm height at the first fret/crown.

I have read and re-read that the sharpness of the first few frets is caused by:
1) Nut too high and needs filing= I HAVE FILED TO LOWEST HEIGHT and still sharp.
2) When filing the nut create an angle to follow the string angle from the tuner to nut= DONE!
3) Pull down on the string to properly sit it on the nut "Witness it"= DONE!

If I file one fraction of a mm more, I will ruin the nut and will need a new one.

Is there a chance the the bass is messed up? Maybe the frets weren't set in with correct specs/distance and it will be impossible to adjust to avoid the sharpness?

Do not know what else I should do. Any advise?

By the way I am following John Carruthers instruction and specs to set up a bass from start to finish in the proper order.
Setting Up Your Bass Guitar: Intonation Adjustment (Step 4 of 4) - YouTube

Can you HEAR this, or are you depending on a piece of machinery?

And, did you create a witness point at the bridge?

[grendle]

Are you using new strings? They should be new. Also this may be a surprise but guitars and basses don't play perfectly in tune everywhere (hence the reason for the buzz fetien system) . Some guys adjust the intonation on the 7th fret instead of the 12th to help compensate on the lower frets. I think you may be over thinking this.

[Zooberwerx]

JOOC, what procedure are you using to measure string > fret gap at the 1st fret? +1 to re-setting witness points at the bridge. Just how severely sharp is the current set-up?

Riis

[topo morto]

Originally Posted by JLS

And, did you create a witness point at the bridge?

What does this mean ? (and yes I have searched, brings up threads about molestation)

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by topo morto

What does this mean ? (and yes I have searched, brings up threads about molestation)

Creating a witness point means establishing a clean break at both the nut slot and bridge saddle. Tune to pitch and firmly press the string just ahead of where it leaves the nut slot (fingerboard side) and bridge saddle. The larger string gauges are somewhat resistant to bending and, if not addressed as above, tend to create "lazy loops" as they pass over the nut and saddle. This will screw up your set-up, tuning, and intonation big-time.

Not to be confused with "witness protection" which is why I wear sunglasses and fake moustache when I leave the house. BTW, my name is not really Riis Unterzuber...it was derived during a drunken game of Scrabble.

Riis

[topo morto]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

Creating a witness point means establishing a clean break at both the nut slot and bridge saddle. Tune to pitch and firmly press the string just ahead of where it leaves the nut slot (fingerboard side) and bridge saddle. The larger string gauges are somewhat resistant to bending and, if not addressed as above, tend to create "lazy loops" as they pass over the nut and saddle. This will screw up your set-up, tuning, and intonation big-time.

Aha, thanks.

Doesn't that create a slight catch 22 though - you don't know where your witness point is until you've set the intonation, but your intonation will be wrong until you have a witness point?

I don't think this has been an issue for me as all my hardware creates quite shallow break angles...

[walterw]

that's why i set saddles by measured distances first, so the break angle is close to the right place first.

the other method is to always start with the saddle too far back, so that you can "walk up" that witness point onto fresh string until you get it where it should go.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Bassnewbie25

I am trying to set the intonation on my short scale bass Ibanez Mikro...

and now you know why little mini-basses are just novelty instruments.

it sounds like you're doing everything right, but there will be a limit to how in-tune it will go no matter what you do.

[Bassnewbie25]

Thanks all for your input!

Here is the thing.. the strings are not new. BUT I bought this bass from a guy who never played it, and you could tell by how clean it was. The strings haven't gotten any kind of abuse and I can tell because I lifted the strings to see where they touch the frets and there is no "flatness" or signs of wear. How can this affect the intonation? I am not sure it factors in that much since they are really not played much set of strings.

Also, I have done the "witness point". What I've done is pull the string down at the saddle and at the nut. Still I can't get the intonation less sharp 1-4th frets. It is 1 cent sharp on the tuner and it bothers when you do octaves, lets say E string and D string type of octaves sound out of tune.

Moreover, I have filed the nut so much that now I am getting a buzz. on the fist fret.. damn it!! Any ideas what I can use to fill it in a mm? maybe a drop of loctite?

This little guy may look like a toy.. but others swear by it. I do have a big Ibanez bass that has the same issue with being sharp on the first frets and have given it the same treatment to set up. I am using a TU-2 Boss tuner, feeler gauge for height at the nut and truss rod height at 7th, and fractional 6'' ruler for height at the 17th fret.

I am about to give up on bass... LOL.. so f***** temperamental dudes.. LOL..

[JLS]

Originally Posted by Bassnewbie25

Thanks all for your input!

Here is the thing.. the strings are not new. BUT I bought this bass from a guy who never played it, and you could tell by how clean it was. The strings haven't gotten any kind of abuse and I can tell because I lifted the strings to see where they touch the frets and there is no "flatness" or signs of wear. How can this affect the intonation? I am not sure it factors in that much since they are really not played much set of strings.

Also, I have done the "witness point". What I've done is pull the string down at the saddle and at the nut. Still I can't get the intonation less sharp 1-4th frets. It is 1 cent sharp on the tuner and it bothers when you do octaves, lets say E string and D string type of octaves sound out of tune.

Moreover, I have filed the nut so much that now I am getting a buzz. on the fist fret.. damn it!! Any ideas what I can use to fill it in a mm? maybe a drop of loctite?

This little guy may look like a toy.. but others swear by it. I do have a big Ibanez bass that has the same issue with being sharp on the first frets and have given it the same treatment to set up. I am using a TU-2 Boss tuner, feeler gauge for height at the nut and truss rod height at 7th, and fractional 6'' ruler for height at the 17th fret.

I am about to give up on bass... LOL.. so f***** temperamental dudes.. LOL..

I repeat: can you HEAR this? If your tells you notes are sharp, but you can't HEAR it, you're creating a problem where none exists, like the guy who posted some months ago about putting an expensive tuner in his rack, and fussed about this note and that note not being dead-on.

[walterw]

yeah, you're using a tuner with a 6-cent wide window of what it considers to be "in tune"!

pop the nut off, shim it with a piece of paper or something to get the string just off the first fret again, glue it back down and stop worrying about it!

[Bassnewbie25]

as I stated on my previous post... when you play 2 strings E and D and, lets say you play open E and fret 2nd fret for the octave E , the fretted E will be sharp and the open E will be in tune. This is noticeable.

Good idea to shim the whole nut up from the bottom walter.

I am looking to get rid of this bass and get an Ibanez SR 500 .. hopefully they stay in tune.

[frianbisher]

1. The only kind of tuner you can really trust is a strobe.

2. Not every note on the fretboard is going to be in tune. This is because of where the frets are placed. Fret placement is a compromise between having some notes close to being correct and others not so much (there is all kinds of math and stuff involved). If all the notes were to be in tune your frets would look like this True Temperament - Fretting systems

[rymiraflores]

Originally Posted by frianbisher

1. The only kind of tuner you can really trust is a strobe.

2. Not every note on the fretboard is going to be in tune. This is because of where the frets are placed. Fret placement is a compromise between having some notes close to being correct and others not so much (there is all kinds of math and stuff involved). If all the notes were to be in tune your frets would look like this True Temperament - Fretting systems

Looks kind of like my 1st re-fret...

[Solarmist]

Why are you filing the nut to set intonation? You probably wrecked it and do need a new one. Set relief first by holding down on the first & last frets - checking for a slight clearance at the 7th/8th. Secondly set the intonation at the bridge with the set screws using a tuner so the fretted 12th matches its 12th fret harmonic.

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by Solarmist

Secondly set the intonation at the bridge with the set screws using a tuner so the tuned open string matches its 12th fret harmonic.

Where did you find that? Everything I've read cites the 12th fret harmonic and fretted note.

Riis

[walterw]

yeah, all non-defective strings automatically match their 12-fret harmonic; you wouldn't even need to have frets on the guitar for that to be the case.

hell, you could move the saddle as far up or as far back as it would go and this wouldn't change.

[grendle]

Strings aren't new. Your done before you start. Get new strings and start over, I don't care how little they have been played. Do not pass go, do not get your $200. Get new strings .

[Marty Forrer]

Intonation correct at 12th fret is not necessarily correct. That is just a starting point. The next step is to check intonation all the way up the fingerboard. There is no fretted bass ever made that will be perfect, it's a matter of physics. If you primarily play in the lower region, then make that the area of most accuracy. If you do venture into the dusty area a bit, get a compromise all the way up. this will be as good as it gets.
All this is dependant on fresh strings, correct nut slot height, correct witness points at nut and bridge and whether the frets are still well crowned.