out of tune even after intonation?

rorykins · #1 01-29-2009, 08:36 AM

hello all.
i noticed that my new (to me) bass was needing to be intonated, i was getting weird off notes, so i did the job myself.
i was at rehearsal last night, and i kept checking my tuner to see why i kept getting notes that sounded "off"...everything says its all in check but i still hear a strange "out of tune-ness". am i nuts?
anything i can do?

i don't know if this is the problem..is it normal for the saddles to be so far towards the center of the bass that the tension springs are no longer under tension? they just rattle now. can intonate the saddles further back on the bridge?

thanks

rorykins · #2 01-29-2009, 08:43 AM

i've setup all my basses before and my buddy who worked in a bass and guitar factory doing setups has given me advice. i've never had a problem untill now, and haven't come across this before.

60bass · #3 01-29-2009, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rorykins

hello all.
i noticed that my new (to me) bass was needing to be intonated, i was getting weird off notes, so i did the job myself.
i was at rehearsal last night, and i kept checking my tuner to see why i kept getting notes that sounded "off"...everything says its all in check but i still hear a strange "out of tune-ness". am i nuts?
anything i can do?

i don't know if this is the problem..is it normal for the saddles to be so far towards the center of the bass that the tension springs are no longer under tension? they just rattle now. can intonate the saddles further back on the bridge?

thanks

rorykins

What brand / model of bass and what type / gauge of strings? Did you use a tuner to set the intonation with? I assume you did.

Let's start there and see if we can figure it out. Any number of things might cause intonation problems and we can run through them one of a time. Sometimes you will get a saddle that goes way forward in order to get the intonation right, but I have to think maybe something's funny if "all" the strings are doing that.

One other thing, are the strange notes you're hearing coming from the actual note or is it more like a strange overtone?

Let us know.

kraigo · #4 01-29-2009, 08:57 AM

In my experience it is not normal to have the saddles that far forward. In fact I often run into the issue of having them back as far as they go.

The thing that sprang to mind for me was perhaps string twist. That creates weird overtones, but shouldn't necessarily make things out of tune. My Noguera came with one or two of the strings with a twist in them. It was driving me nuts until I found it. It really surprised me when I did. I thought that the twist would be one of those things for people who claim to hear the difference between silver and gold speaker cable. Not so, apparently.

What kind of bass?

KO

rorykins · #5 01-29-2009, 09:06 AM

its an '83 Japanese Squier jazz bass. (great bass) i used a boss tuner to set the intonaton and checked it on my korg pitchblack. the strings are d'addario XLs, i think 50-105? ive never used XLs before, im usually a "slinky" guy

it does kinda sound like an overtone, i will check that in a minute.

JTE · #6 01-29-2009, 09:16 AM

OK, not to be condescending, but are you sure you set the intonation correctly? There's been a lot of people posting ot TB who say they set the intonation, but after further discussion we find they did it wrong.

So, to be clear- you set the saddles so the fretted note at the 12th fret is exactly one octave above the open string (or so the fretted note at the 12th fret is the exact same pitch as the harmonic at the 12th fret). The point is that you have compared the fretted note to either the harmonic or the open string. Too many people compare the harmonic to the open string which tells you only that your string is in good shape...

Then, to check it. You play an open string and tune it with the tuner. Play fretted notes around the neck with the tuner and see if they're right. There's always some variance, but if it's noticably out of tune at the 3rd fret but in tune at the 12th fret, then look to your action and your nut for obvious sources of error.

If the problem that it sounds like overtones are out, check to see how close your strings are to the PUPs, especially the neck one. The magnets can pull strings enough to impede their clean vibration. This problem is so common on Stratocaster guitars some techs call it "Strat-itis". The nature of the PUPs and the strings and the PUP location makes it more common on Jazz basses than on Precisions.

jte

60bass · #7 01-29-2009, 09:30 AM

JTE is on the same track here as I am regarding string twist. That's why I asked about the overtones.

If you wrapped the strings around tuning post by hand instead of allowing them to wrap around the post with the rotation of the tuning peg, you can "twist" the string. The windings actually loosen up from the core. This causes intonation problems and strange overtones.

If so, usually taking the string off and then putting it back letting the post wind it clears it up. In a severe case of string twist, you have to get a new string.

Plus if your frets are worn or flattened out it can throw off your intonation, as well as improper neck relief.

rorykins · #8 01-29-2009, 09:32 AM

yes, that is exactly how i set it. i'm going to check it over again because the springs are loose and so they might have moved when i put the bass in my gigbag or whatever.

rorykins · #9 01-29-2009, 09:35 AM

i wound the strings 'round the post properly too, i double checked the twisting just to be sure..no dice.

i wasnt aware "strat-itis" affected jazzes too. thanks guys for the quick help!
i'm in the middle of rechecking my intonation

senorblues · #10 01-29-2009, 09:41 AM

I have have weird overtone sounding out of tune issues with Daddario Chromes.

rorykins · #11 01-29-2009, 09:54 AM

ok, so...
i rechecked the intonation with my pedal tuner, and checked it against the boss tuner. the boss was waaaay off. i guess that boss tuner is on its last legs, i changed the batteries and everything. the saddles are in completly different places now, and it sounds (to my ears) alot better. i'm not hearing the "off" sounds now, but i will have to see when i play with the band tomorrow if its perfect.

one thing..i noticed that alot of noted around the neck were a bit sharp..not much. i know its never perfect...but just for confirmation...is that right?

kraigo · #12 01-29-2009, 10:00 AM

It depends on how high your action is. Lower action stays in tune better because you don't stretch the string as much when you fret it. A lighter touch also helps for the same reason.

Intonation is never an exact science.

KO

rorykins · #13 01-29-2009, 10:08 AM

right. i forgot. duh...i raised my action earlier too...stupid me.

thanks everyone. i think i've got it sorted. if i still have issues, you will hear from me.

bass player 48 · #14 01-29-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rorykins

the boss was waaaay off. i guess that boss tuner is on its last legs, i changed the batteries and everything.

Make sure that you didn't accidently choose a flat setting on the tuner. I've done that by mistake and not noticed it. Sometimes the indicator for that is tiny and unnoticeable. I had a buddy do the same thing to... he went through a whole rehearsal and ended the night disgusted because every note he played sounded bad, no matter how many times he checked his tuning, he sounded out of tune. His drummer found the problem.

60bass · #15 01-29-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bass player 48

His drummer found the problem.

OUCH

Can you say big time embarrassment

Intonation is ALWAYS perfect in theory. In the real world, a bass just has too many variables to ever be 100 % perfect but we get em pretty close.

rorykins · #16 01-29-2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bass player 48

Make sure that you didn't accidently choose a flat setting on the tuner. I've done that by mistake and not noticed it. Sometimes the indicator for that is tiny and unnoticeable. I had a buddy do the same thing to... he went through a whole rehearsal and ended the night disgusted because every note he played sounded bad, no matter how many times he checked his tuning, he sounded out of tune. His drummer found the problem.

i used the boss on a gig last week with the boss as my main tuning tool. i kept checking it, and re-checking it..only to tune by ear during the songs.
i'm gonna get rid of that thing.

JLS · #17 01-30-2009, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rorykins

ok, so...
i rechecked the intonation with my pedal tuner, and checked it against the boss tuner. the boss was waaaay off. i guess that boss tuner is on its last legs, i changed the batteries and everything. the saddles are in completly different places now, and it sounds (to my ears) alot better. i'm not hearing the "off" sounds now, but i will have to see when i play with the band tomorrow if its perfect.

one thing..i noticed that alot of noted around the neck were a bit sharp..not much. i know its never perfect...but just for confirmation...is that right?

When I do a setup, I balance the intonation between where you actually play, and the 12th fret harmonic/fretted note. This makes players happy.