To pkr2

[EADG mx]

I am really interested in discussing this with you, because some things you have to say are the complete opposite of what the tech at my local music store told me. This is what I said based on his opinion and the opinion of other luthiers (to name one, the owner of Winters Custom):


------------
Sure it can, say your nut is cut too low and your saddles are high. Your strings will buzz at the first few frets, wont they? Changing the relief does change the action as well, if you have a lot of curve then your strings will be higher, if your neck is straight they'll be lower. I was under the impression (from Gary Willis' 101 bass tips) that you adjust the relief for buzzing in the first 5 frets and adjust the saddles for buzzing from the 12th fret and higher. Also, I was told by a luthier the proper height for a nut is to have the strings half in and half above the nut, now that I have an EADGC set my strings are below that. So my nut is now cut too shallow. Make sense? And if string gauge doesn't affect the buzz, how come people are always told to raise their action after getting higher gauge strings?

I do have experience, I strung my own bass EADGC, and it had no buzz problems prior to this. Once I did, there was a lot of buzz in the first 5 frets. I took my bass in to the Schecter dealer where I bought it and their bass tech told me that the problem was that the strings were now too low in the nut. He loosened the TR for me but said this wouldn't fix the problem and should go to a local luthier and get a new nut cut.
----------


Just out of curiosity, do you have any experience with stringing basses to tenor tuning (EADGC or ADGC)?

[BurningSkies]

I'm not pkr2, but that string guage thing doesn't work for me. Higher guage strings have more tension, therefore less flex, and you shouldn't have to raise your strings...the bottom of the string is in the same relative location since the bottom of a large string still hits the bridge and the nut at the same location that the smaller string did. Usually, you can get a lower action with lighter strings.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

I am really interested in discussing this with you, because some things you have to say are the complete opposite of what the tech at my local music store told me. This is what I said based on his opinion and the opinion of other luthiers (to name one, the owner of Winters Custom):


------------
Sure it can, say your nut is cut too low and your saddles are high. Your strings will buzz at the first few frets, wont they? Changing the relief does change the action as well, if you have a lot of curve then your strings will be higher, if your neck is straight they'll be lower. I was under the impression (from Gary Willis' 101 bass tips) that you adjust the relief for buzzing in the first 5 frets and adjust the saddles for buzzing from the 12th fret and higher. Also, I was told by a luthier the proper height for a nut is to have the strings half in and half above the nut, now that I have an EADGC set my strings are below that. So my nut is now cut too shallow. Make sense? And if string gauge doesn't affect the buzz, how come people are always told to raise their action after getting higher gauge strings?

I do have experience, I strung my own bass EADGC, and it had no buzz problems prior to this. Once I did, there was a lot of buzz in the first 5 frets. I took my bass in to the Schecter dealer where I bought it and their bass tech told me that the problem was that the strings were now too low in the nut. He loosened the TR for me but said this wouldn't fix the problem and should go to a local luthier and get a new nut cut.
----------


Just out of curiosity, do you have any experience with stringing basses to tenor tuning (EADGC or ADGC)?

Let's take it one point at a time.
"Sure it can, say your nut is cut too low and your saddles are high. Your strings will buzz at the first few frets, wont they?"

My response was that the nut will not affect any fretted note, only open ones.

Lets say that you were dealing with any other bass that had been restrung for a different tuning but it had a zero fret rather than a conventional nut. You have buzzing in the first few frets. Please tell me what you are going to adjust if the nut is completely out of the equation.

The reason that I called you on that point is that by suggesting a new nut means an invasive repair. A HUGE NO NO! In reality, the nut may eventually have to be replaced, but NOT as a diagnostic function.

When you fret a note, the nut is no longer even functional other than to hold the strings in alignment with the neck.

Lets settle the points of disagreement one at a time for clarity. OK?

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

I am really interested in discussing this with you, because some things you have to say are the complete opposite of what the tech at my local music store told me. This is what I said based on his opinion and the opinion of other luthiers (to name one, the owner of Winters Custom):


------------
Sure it can, say your nut is cut too low and your saddles are high. Your strings will buzz at the first few frets, wont they? Changing the relief does change the action as well, if you have a lot of curve then your strings will be higher, if your neck is straight they'll be lower. I was under the impression (from Gary Willis' 101 bass tips) that you adjust the relief for buzzing in the first 5 frets and adjust the saddles for buzzing from the 12th fret and higher. Also, I was told by a luthier the proper height for a nut is to have the strings half in and half above the nut, now that I have an EADGC set my strings are below that. So my nut is now cut too shallow. Make sense? And if string gauge doesn't affect the buzz, how come people are always told to raise their action after getting higher gauge strings?

I do have experience, I strung my own bass EADGC, and it had no buzz problems prior to this. Once I did, there was a lot of buzz in the first 5 frets. I took my bass in to the Schecter dealer where I bought it and their bass tech told me that the problem was that the strings were now too low in the nut. He loosened the TR for me but said this wouldn't fix the problem and should go to a local luthier and get a new nut cut.
----------


Just out of curiosity, do you have any experience with stringing basses to tenor tuning (EADGC or ADGC)?

Let's take it one point at a time.
>"Sure it can, say your nut is cut too low and your saddles are high. Your strings will buzz at the first few frets, wont they?"<

My response was that the nut will not affect any fretted note, only open ones.

A nut is in perfect adjustment when the bottom of the slots are on exactly the same plane as the tops of the frets.

Lets say that you were dealing with any other bass that had been restrung for a different tuning but it had a zero fret rather than a conventional nut. You have buzzing in the first few frets. Please tell me what you are going to adjust if the nut is completely out of the equation. Any fretted note becomes a functionable zero fret

The reason that I called you on that point is that by suggesting a new nut means an invasive repair. A HUGE NO NO! In reality, the nut may eventually have to be replaced, but NOT as a diagnostic function.

When you fret a note, the nut is no longer even functional other than to hold the strings in alignment with the neck since the fret itself becomes a zero fret.

The VERY FIRST adjustment that you make without full understanding what that adjustment should do and how it does it is the first step down the primrose path to frustration.

Lets settle the points of disagreement one at a time for clarity. OK?

P.S.- if any of the more experienced guys spot any misinformation in what I suggest, please feel free to jump in here and straighten me out.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by pkr2

Let's take it one point at a time.
>"Sure it can, say your nut is cut too low and your saddles are high. Your strings will buzz at the first few frets, wont they?"<

My response was that the nut will not affect any fretted note, only open ones.

A nut is in perfect adjustment when the bottom of the slots are on exactly the same plane as the tops of the frets.

Lets say that you were dealing with any other bass that had been restrung for a different tuning but it had a zero fret rather than a conventional nut. You have buzzing in the first few frets. Please tell me what you are going to adjust if the nut is completely out of the equation. Any fretted note becomes a functionable zero fret

The reason that I called you on that point is that by suggesting a new nut means an invasive repair. A HUGE NO NO! In reality, the nut may eventually have to be replaced, but NOT as a diagnostic function.

When you fret a note, the nut is no longer even functional other than to hold the strings in alignment with the neck since the fret itself becomes a zero fret.

The VERY FIRST adjustment that you make without full understanding what that adjustment should do and how it does it is the first step down the primrose path to frustration.

Lets settle the points of disagreement one at a time for clarity. OK?

P.S.- if any of the more experienced guys spot any misinformation in what I suggest, please feel free to jump in here and straighten me out.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying. "invasive repair"? "diagnostic function"? "primrose path to frustration."?

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by Joshua

I can't even tell what the original poster is trying to say.

EADG mx - can you organize the post a little better so those of us with but a single cup o' coffee in us can comprehend it better?

Or at least so that I could comprehend it better...

This is continued from the "Stringing EADGB" thread, you'll have to read that.

[emils]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

I am really interested in discussing this with you, because some things you have to say are the complete opposite of what the tech at my local music store told me. This is what I said based on his opinion and the opinion of other luthiers (to name one, the owner of Winters Custom):


------------
Sure it can, say your nut is cut too low and your saddles are high. Your strings will buzz at the first few frets, wont they? Changing the relief does change the action as well, if you have a lot of curve then your strings will be higher, if your neck is straight they'll be lower. I was under the impression (from Gary Willis' 101 bass tips) that you adjust the relief for buzzing in the first 5 frets and adjust the saddles for buzzing from the 12th fret and higher. Also, I was told by a luthier the proper height for a nut is to have the strings half in and half above the nut, now that I have an EADGC set my strings are below that. So my nut is now cut too shallow. Make sense? And if string gauge doesn't affect the buzz, how come people are always told to raise their action after getting higher gauge strings?

I do have experience, I strung my own bass EADGC, and it had no buzz problems prior to this. Once I did, there was a lot of buzz in the first 5 frets. I took my bass in to the Schecter dealer where I bought it and their bass tech told me that the problem was that the strings were now too low in the nut. He loosened the TR for me but said this wouldn't fix the problem and should go to a local luthier and get a new nut cut.
----------


Just out of curiosity, do you have any experience with stringing basses to tenor tuning (EADGC or ADGC)?

EADG,

Once the strings are changed to smaller gouge you are basically changing string tension as well, so if you went from BEADG to EADGC new strings are putting less tension on the neck, therefore the truss rod will tend to pull the neck back and you'll end up with a buzz at the first few frets. This has to do with the string tension not the nut, especially if you didn't have this problem before you changed the strings.
Regardless of what string gouge you're using the string will always sit the same distance from the fretboard.

You could have buzzing in the nut if the nut grooves are too wide for the new set of strings and it allows for the sideway movement.

Strings sitting too deep in the nut is usually more of a cosmetic issue rather then technical one.

Hope that clarified few things for you.

[jeffhigh]

Basically Pkr2 is 100% correct
Nut height only effects the open string
Buzzing on the first 5 frets is likeley to be a relief issue but measure, don't just adjust based on symptoms.
As for having the string half in the nut, this is an ideal.
Any less leaves it vulnerable to popping out.
Any more looks bad and gets in the way but does not affect tone or playability.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying. "invasive repair"? "diagnostic function"? "primrose path to frustration."?

An needless invasive repair is ,for example, is like removing the fingerboard to repair what you think is a broken truss rod only to find a stripped truss rod nut which could have been repaired without removing the board. A noninvasive repair would be replacing a string because you think it is faulty and causing a buzz.

If you went to a doctor with a stomach ache and the doctor decided that you had a foriegn object lodged in your gut, he has two ways of verifying his diagnosis. One way is to cut you open to see and the other is to simply do an xray. cutting is invasive and xrays aren't. The correct choice is obvious.

Unnecessarily removing a nut opens you up to the risk of damaging the finish, chipping the fingerboard, etc.
The term primrose path means a path that goes nowhere.

I'll try to be less verbose in the future. You do know what verbose means, right? I am a better setup tech than I am a writer.

More to the point of the discussion, do you understand why telling someone to replace the nut for the problem as described is in error? Do you now understand why the nut cannot cause buzzes on the fretted notes?

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by pkr2

An needless invasive repair is ,for example, is like removing the fingerboard to repair what you think is a broken truss rod only to find a stripped truss rod nut which could have been repaired without removing the board. A noninvasive repair would be replacing a string because you think it is faulty and causing a buzz.

If you went to a doctor with a stomach ache and the doctor decided that you had a foriegn object lodged in your gut, he has two ways of verifying his diagnosis. One way is to cut you open to see and the other is to simply do an xray. cutting is invasive and xrays aren't. The correct choice is obvious.

Unnecessarily removing a nut opens you up to the risk of damaging the finish, chipping the fingerboard, etc.
The term primrose path means a path that goes nowhere.

I'll try to be less verbose in the future. You do know what verbose means, right? I am a better setup tech than I am a writer.

More to the point of the discussion, do you understand why telling someone to replace the nut for the problem as described is in error? Do you now understand why the nut cannot cause buzzes on the fretted notes?

Ok, I understand now. I am only 17 years old, not 69 like some people. Just needed you to simplify some terms I've never heard of.


I see why you would not replace the nut, but I've read in a guitar magazine that a nut cut too low can cause string buzzing. It makes sense to me as well. You say the proper nut height is when it's equal to the first fret? I've heard that it's proper when half of the string is in and half is above. Probably the same thing, but still, if you filed your nut down right now, would some of your frets not buzz?

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by jeffhigh

Basically Pkr2 is 100% correct
Nut height only effects the open string
Buzzing on the first 5 frets is likeley to be a relief issue but measure, don't just adjust based on symptoms.
As for having the string half in the nut, this is an ideal.
Any less leaves it vulnerable to popping out.
Any more looks bad and gets in the way but does not affect tone or playability.

I got a tech to measure and he loosened the TR for me. The neck did look a little straighter after I restrung, though.

[jeffhigh]

If you are going to change string guages you need to know how to measure and adjust relief yourself.
If you want to play a well set up bass summer and winter you need to be able to do it.
yes a nut cut too low will cause the open string to buzz on the frets above it, but is not related to buzzing when you fret the string on those frets.

[emils]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

You say the proper nut height is when it's equal to the first fret? I've heard that it's proper when half of the string is in and half is above. Probably the same thing, but still, if you filed your nut down right now, would some of your frets not buzz?

Nut hight refers to distance between the fretboard and the bottom of the string when seated in the nut. Wether there is half a string above the nut or half way down the nut doesn't make any differance to the nut hight. When you change the gouge of the string the tension will change and not the nut hight.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

Ok, I understand now. I am only 17 years old, not 69 like some people. Just needed you to simplify some terms I've never heard of.


I see why you would not replace the nut, but I've read in a guitar magazine that a nut cut too low can cause string buzzing. It makes sense to me as well. You say the proper nut height is when it's equal to the first fret? I've heard that it's proper when half of the string is in and half is above. Probably the same thing, but still, if you filed your nut down right now, would some of your frets not buzz?

I know your age. I checked your profile. The problem is that people who post questions don't always check profiles, so they don't know that you're 17. What you say on the net carries the same weight to the person with a problem as what Emils, Richard, jeff, Burning skies or I say. See the problem?

I'm glad to see that you are interested in setup and I'm certainly not trying to put you down or ridicule you by trying to point out where you're mistaken in what you feel that you know. We all start as novices. If nothing else we are having a good discussion. We all may even learn something from each other.

I said that we would go point by point but it's your thread. Shall we continue? You still have a problem in your understanding of the relationship between relief and action.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by pkr2

I said that we would go point by point but it's your thread. Shall we continue? You still have a problem in your understanding of the relationship between relief and action.

I don't think I have a problem understanding the relationship between relief and action, why do you say that?


I'd be glad to continue. One other thing I wasn't able to get a decent explanation out of at musicianforums:

My C string broke twice, both while I was tuning it up to pitch. I use the tuning EADGBb sometimes and it broke while I was tuning it back up to C. The thing is, it didn't break at the bridge, but past the nut (between the nut and the string post). My theory is that it must be catching on the nut somehow, and that's why it breaks at this point.

Is that a possibility? If this is the case, I definetely want a new nut (with thinner slots). C strings are hard to come by for me, not to mention expensive.

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

I don't think I have a problem understanding the relationship between relief and action, why do you say that?


I'd be glad to continue. One other thing I wasn't able to get a decent explanation out of at musicianforums:

My C string broke twice, both while I was tuning it up to pitch. I use the tuning EADGBb sometimes and it broke while I was tuning it back up to C. The thing is, it didn't break at the bridge, but past the nut (between the nut and the string post). My theory is that it must be catching on the nut somehow, and that's why it breaks at this point.

Is that a possibility? If this is the case, I definetely want a new nut (with thinner slots). C strings are hard to come by for me, not to mention expensive.

"I don't think I have a problem understanding the relationship between relief and action, why do you say that?" Refrence the 15th post in the thread that this thread spun from. First sentence.

The relief is adjusted on the order of thousandths of an inch. It, for all practical purposes, only makes a meaningful difference in the first five to seven frets. It has extremely minimal effect on the string heigth, ie action.

The action is adjusted on the order of fractions of an inch. It has the most sffect from the fifth to seventh fret to the bridge. It has the most effect on the bridge end of the neck and the effect becomes less and less as you go toward the nut. It is mostly a player preference adjustment once the strings are just high enough to elimenate buzzing at the bridge end.

The measurement for the relief, being so small is almost completely swamped out in the relatively large action measurement. So much so that it would be almost impossible to feel the effects of a relief change in the playing of the instrument.

It may seem an insignificant point to you. It's not. It's a very important point in a good understanding of the geometry of a setup.

"One other thing I wasn't able to get a decent explanation out of at musicianforums"

With your depth of understanding, you weren't getting a decent explanation here either. Could it be that that you got a "decent" explanation there but couldn't understand what you were being told?

"My C string broke twice, both while I was tuning it up to pitch. I use the tuning EADGBb sometimes and it broke while I was tuning it back up to C. The thing is, it didn't break at the bridge, but past the nut (between the nut and the string post). My theory is that it must be catching on the nut somehow, and that's why it breaks at this point."

I believe I'll pass on offering any advice on your problem. Maybe one of the other guys will field your question. I will offer this bit of advice in the friendliest way that I know how: Put the allen wrenches and screwdrivers away and spend a couple or three weeks in the forum archives and setup sites recommended here doing some serious studying.

I truly hope that something that I've said has or will be of some help to you. If you think not, simply disregard any or all of what I've said.

With that I am going to politely back out of this discussion because I'm not seeing anything positive coming from further discussion.

Best of luck to you, my friend. I's been real.

[BurningSkies]

I'll posit a guess on breaking of strings. I don't think you're getting jammed up at the bridge. I think your highest string is too heavy a guage. You're tensioning it more than it wants to be, and the repeated stress/relief/stress that you're putting the string through by continually tuning up and down is causing metal fatique in the string core. Normally, it wouldn't be a problem, but since the string is highly tensioned when tuned to C it's causing a problem.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by pkr2

It may seem an insignificant point to you. It's not. It's a very important point in a good understanding of the geometry of a setup.

I didn't say it was an insignificant point, and I don't think I have a problem understanding the relationship between relief and action either. I already knew everything that you just explained about relief.

Originally Posted by pkr2

"One other thing I wasn't able to get a decent explanation out of at musicianforums"

With your depth of understanding, you weren't getting a decent explanation here either. Could it be that that you got a "decent" explanation there but couldn't understand what you were being told?

Actually, I understood everything they said completely. But no one was able to give a good explanation. And although I'm younger than you, I'm not stupid, understood?

Originally Posted by pkr2

I believe I'll pass on offering any advice on your problem. Maybe one of the other guys will field your question. I will offer this bit of advice in the friendliest way that I know how: Put the allen wrenches and screwdrivers away and spend a couple or three weeks in the forum archives and setup sites recommended here doing some serious studying.

I don't think you're offering any help in a friendly way at all, to be honest. It seems to me like you're enjoying talking down to me because you're older and more experienced. And I am not going to put my allen wrenches and screwdrivers away. I understand bass setup a lot better than you seem to think I do (which appears to be not at all). You can't base my knowledge off the fact that I was misinformed on one or two subjects.

I know you're trying to help (and you have), but I don't think you have to be so condescending when doing so. If you had intended to make me feel like **** for your own personal gain, mission accomplished.

MOD EDIT: All obscenity is to be completely masked as per the usage agreement.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

I'll posit a guess on breaking of strings. I don't think you're getting jammed up at the bridge. I think your highest string is too heavy a guage. You're tensioning it more than it wants to be, and the repeated stress/relief/stress that you're putting the string through by continually tuning up and down is causing metal fatique in the string core. Normally, it wouldn't be a problem, but since the string is highly tensioned when tuned to C it's causing a problem.

I thought that might be it. It's a .032 gauge which seems to be heavy compared to the majority of C string gauges I have seen. Would you recommend a .030 or possibly less?

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

I thought that might be it. It's a .032 gauge which seems to be heavy compared to the majority of C string gauges I have seen. Would you recommend a .030 or possibly less?

I don't have a good answer for you. I run my 5 with a low B. I'd suggest maybe sending out a few PMs to well known TB ERB players. I bet they'd have some suggestions for you. You might also check out some of the online string vendors...I'm sure they list what they have available.