Is pro setup necessary for fret level or Plek?

[Chrisk-K]

I've been doing my own setups for more than 15 years and know what I'm doing.

Is a pro setup necessary for a fret level or Plek job? I am not sure how a luthier can accurately evaluate frets without setting up the bass properly.

The reason why I'm asking is I need to make a decision:

Luthier A: Plek including setup $160
Luthier B: Fret level and polish without setup $75, with setup $130.

What are your thoughts?

[walterw]

a fret level without a setup? is he handing you back the guitar with no strings on it and the nut stashed in the case?

as for the decision (and ignoring the goofy "no setup" option), the prices are close enough that it matters less which guy has the plek machine than which guy is a good tech.

[ehque]

From what i see fret leveling is done with the strings off and the truss rod adjusted so that the neck is dead straight.

Perhaps the "no-setup" option returns you the bass without setting it up for strings again. But indeed it's a goofy option - you won't be able to put strings back on the bass without at least a rudimentary setup.

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by Chrisk-K

I've been doing my own setups for more than 15 years and know what I'm doing.

Is a pro setup necessary for a fret level or Plek job? I am not sure how a luthier can accurately evaluate frets without setting up the bass properly.

The reason why I'm asking is I need to make a decision:

Luthier A: Plek including setup $160
Luthier B: Fret level and polish without setup $75, with setup $130.

What are your thoughts?

A Plek job needs a setup first. But since you've been doing it and know what you are doing, that is good enough. The Plek machine works like this. You start with your bass set up the way you like it. The machine then measures all the frets on the instrument and plots them on the screen. High or low frets immediately become obvious. The machine will ALSO show if your truss rod is not quite right from the curvature of the fret plane.

In my case (my Conklin 7 string) the operator could tell right away that the truss rod needed a small tweak to bring the curvature of the fret plane into alignment so the Plek process will remove the LEAST amount of metal from the frets when it cuts them. Note that all this requires Plek operator skill. The operator needs to interpret the measurements and tweak the setup so the fret cutting will be optimized. The plek machine is not some totally automated device.

Once the instrument has it's curvature optimized for your setup, the strings are loosened and tied back. The neck has of course sprung back without the tension. The machine then remeasures the frets and calculates the cuts needed so that once the neck is re-tensioned it will present a perfect fret curvature. This relies on the assumption that the neck actually WILL go back when tension is re-applied. But it seems to be true. Worked on mine just fine.

A fret level and polish is done on the unstrung instrument with a straight neck (sometimes in a jig that applies simulated string pressure) and is done by hand, careful measurements and skill. When strings are re-applied the final result may be tweaked in just a tad if things didn't quite go back to where they should.

Both these operations are essentially equivalent. Both strongly depend on the skillz of the luthier. I've had both done and have been VERY happy with BOTH jobs. So basically it's which guy do you trust the most?

[chunger]

Are both local?

For me personally, PLEK is able to do it better than hand leveling ~80% of the time and identify/resolve problems faster/easier, and the process is performed under string tension as well as ideal relief.

If neck does not exhibit any weirdness that needs to be compensated for, ~20% of the time, my hand level will perform on par or arguably a little better than PLEK.

The skill of the operator in either case factors in significantly to the quality of the final setup.

[JLS]

Originally Posted by chunger

Are both local?

For me personally, PLEK is able to do it better than hand leveling ~80% of the time and identify/resolve problems faster/easier, and the process is performed under string tension as well as ideal relief.

If neck does not exhibit any weirdness that needs to be compensated for, ~20% of the time, my hand level will perform on par or arguably a little better than PLEK.

The skill of the operator in either case factors in significantly to the quality of the final setup.

Funny, that's just how I do it without a plek machine!

[Chrisk-K]

I dropped my Spector at a shop for Plek. When I play my Plek'd Lakland DJ, it feels like the strings are on the other side because action is so low without buzz.

I'll know if my Spector plays like the DJ tomorrow. Fingers crossed!

[vejesse]

How could you offer fret leveling without a "setup". How does this make any sense?

[JLS]

How could you offer fret leveling without a "setup". How does this make any sense?

"This way to the egress".

it matters less which guy has the plek machine than which guy is a good tech.

Words of wisdom.

[davec]

Plek machines are not cheap, but I would tend to goto a experience luthier first and would expect it to be cheaper.
The fact that he is offering a fret level and polish w/o a set-up tends to make me think that he does not have a lot of experience, or are you sure the discount is level and setup without the high polish?

[Chrisk-K]

The fact that he is offering a fret level and polish w/o a set-up tends to make me think that he does not have a lot of experience, or are you sure the discount is level and setup without the high polish?

My understanding is he is well-known and very experienced. $75 for level and polish. A setup requires $55 more.

[darkstorm]

Id have them do it as per how youve allready setup your instrument yourself. Then when you get it back. It should be same as when it went it. Unless something occured during the flet level that cause bridge saddle adjustments to change. Not likely of course. Then simply do any retweaking of your setup if the work done lets you get even lower action that you'd like. If they readjust the truss rod to add more bow then you use, then readjust it back to your pref. But unless your instrument needs truss rod adjustment that you just haven't gotten around to yet (maybe the one often done near start of colder weather), I cant think of any reason for him to adjust your truss rod during the work done. Id just say no to the setup addon.

[vejesse]

Originally Posted by darkstorm

Id have them do it as per how youve allready setup your instrument yourself. Then when you get it back. It should be same as when it went it. Unless something occured during the flet level that cause bridge saddle adjustments to change. Not likely of course. Then simply do any retweaking of your setup if the work done lets you get even lower action that you'd like. If they readjust the truss rod to add more bow then you use, then readjust it back to your pref. But unless your instrument needs truss rod adjustment that you just haven't gotten around to yet (maybe the one often done near start of colder weather), I cant think of any reason for him to adjust your truss rod during the work done. Id just say no to the setup addon.

This is lunacy. How are you going to level the frets without getting the neck straight?

Pardon my rant but I hear people throwing the word "setup" around a lot here. What do consider to be setup work? Evidently its simply changing the strings then jacking around on the truss rod and string height adjusters. How about installing frets or making a nut? That's not setup work?

It starts with the fingerboard surface, then you've got frets, nut , bridge. It's all related.

[202dy]

There are two schools of thought when it comes to dressing (level, crown, and polishing) frets. The first way is to remove the strings, straighten the neck, then perform the dress. The second is to set up the guitar, straighten the neck under tension, index it, remove the strings, return the neck to index, and perform the dress-all measurements preferably done from playing position.

A Plek machine is an attempt to duplicate the second method with machinery. Rather than returning the neck to index after removing the strings, the computer calculates the cut from the base measurement.

There are pros and cons to each method. Each one is dependent on a "perfect" neck. That is, one that will drop into smooth parabolic relief under tension. Unfortunately, many necks have quirks due to the organic nature of wood or the construction process and any errors that may have occurred during assembly. The first method is the traditional factory approach. The second is an attempt to remedy any quirks that may exist. All will fail miserably if the skill of the tech is not up to par.

In the guitar world, a set up does not include fret dressing or fret installation, nor does it include resurfacing the fingerboard. Those are separate services that require a lot more time and a different skill level on the part of the technician. A guitar set up includes regulating the relief (curve in the fingerboard), string height, curvature, and intonation. A good tech will clean and oil the fingerboard, as well as clean the guitar as part of the service. On an electric guitar they may spray clean and lubricate the potentiometers. Heavy cleaning, rust removal, or any other repair work is extra.

[vejesse]

I'm talking about non - PLEK, mainstream work. Even when you're using some kind of neck fixture to simulate string tension, you still level the fingerboard or frets with the neck adjusted to remove the least amount of material, i.e. straight. Now I know one guy here uses a small, radiused metal sanding block to level frets when the strings are tensioned. That's out of my sphere.

Here's the problem. You've got music store "techs" doing their "setup" work but they can't figure why the strings are still buzzing. It's kind of a scam really. You can't set up an instrument to play well without being able to evaluate and or correct the frets. Anyone can figure out how to adjust their own relief and string height and clean their guitar. Setting up an instrument to it's maximum potential takes someone who knows what their doing.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by vejesse

I'm talking about non - PLEK, mainstream work. Even when you're using some kind of neck fixture to simulate string tension, you still level the fingerboard or frets with the neck adjusted to remove the least amount of material, i.e. straight. Now I know one guy here uses a small, radiused metal sanding block to level frets when the strings are tensioned. That's out of my sphere.

Here's the problem. You've got music store "techs" doing their "setup" work but they can't figure why the strings are still buzzing. It's kind of a scam really. You can't set up an instrument to play well without being able to evaluate and or correct the frets. Anyone can figure out how to adjust their own relief and string height and clean their guitar. Setting up an instrument to it's maximum potential takes someone who knows what their doing.

You are absolutely correct when you say that setting up an instrument to it's maximum potential takes and experienced hand. That person can evaluate any problems outside the scope of a normal set-up and report the findings to the owner of the instrument. At that point the owner can make a decision as to whether or not they want to have the repair done.

The problem is that most guitarists are not very well educated as to the maintenance and repair of their instruments. Most folks are unaware that frets can be dressed, let alone that a guitar can be re-fretted. When they take their guitar to a tech for a set-up and subsequently receive a report that the frets need be attended to, it is not unusual for them to view this as a bait and switch scam. This is because there is a tendency to trust the manufacturer to have done a perfect job when they completed the instrument. And why shouldn't they?

Everything else they purchase is perfect when they buy it. Unfortunately, most of these things, like aforementioned autos and electronics tend to either function or not. Things made primarily or completely out of wood move with the seasons. They are subject to changes in temperature. They can develop problems over time, to say nothing of the wear on parts like frets and fingerboards. Considering that the vast majority of factory fret dressing is performed on a slack truss rod, it is amazing that they play as well as they do right off the truck.

But the average player knows very little of this. They expect that when they pay five hundred, a thousand, or fifteen hundred dollars for an instrument that the instrument is perfect. And for the most part, they are good enough to play many hours per year before really needing service. But are they perfect? Not really.

As an aside, it is kind of amusing that they usually know much more about automobiles or iPod than the one thing they will tell you is the most important thing they own. At the first squeak or squeal of the brakes they will take the automobile to the shop. The same person will stare into ruts that are twenty thousandths of an inch deep and wonder why their guitar buzzes.

[JLS]

Now I know one guy here uses a small, radiused metal sanding block to level frets when the strings are tensioned.

I use Aluminum u-channel, under the lie of each string. Bottom is trued flat. PSA sandpaper.

As an aside, it is kind of amusing that they usually know much more about automobiles or iPod than the one thing they will tell you is the most important thing they own. At the first squeak or squeal of the brakes they will take the automobile to the shop. The same person will stare into ruts that are twenty thousandths of an inch deep and wonder why their guitar buzzes.

Yah-huh!