Roundwound strings on a fretless.

[Craig Bassman]

I bought my first fretless about a year ago, a Schecter Stilletto Studio 4, and it came with roundwound strings. I thought it sounded great but after a while I noticed the damage it was doing to the fingerboard. I switched to flatwounds and as great as it still sounds, I am planning on buying a fretless acoustic (probably a Michael Kelly) and fitting it with flatwounds.

The question is: what can I do to keep the fingerboard of the Schecter from getting damaged if I switch it back to roundwounds?

Thanks!

[Meyatch]

Nothing, its the price you pay. I use roundounds on all of my fretless basses, and they wear the board. Some kind of coating could perhaps slow it down, but perhaps change the sound.

In reality its not that big of a deal. If you ever get to the point where it needs it, have someone sand the fingerboard smooth, and eventually replace the fingerboard. But your going to have a lot of playing in at that point.

[202dy]

Some players will coat the fingerboard with epoxy ala Jaco. Some say this can change the sound.

Who cares?

Fretless fingerboards, like fretted fingerboards will wear. Like a fret dress, the fretless board can be resurfaced many times before replacement will be required. This is the way it has been done in the violin family of instruments since day one. Replacement is not much more expensive than having a refret performed on a fretted instrument.

Those that argue for epoxy must remember that the epoxy (fiberglass, super glue, molten glass, whatever) will also wear and will require maintenance and filling. Unless the original coat is completely removed the fills will show. While it can be artfully performed it usually looks pretty bad.

[Matthijs]

I've found a compromise between nothing and epoxy in "Tung oil". I believe it's a linseed oil and resin mixture. It's used for antique furniture. It offers protection and doesn't change the sound. Downside is you have to apply a new coat about twice a year, and it takes a few days to harden. I didn't sand my frettless for the last five years. Before I had to sand it down every year.

[Bassamatic]

Try using the Elixir Nanoweb Strings - they are round and sound like round, but encased in a micro-thin Gore-Tex sleeve - they are easier on the fingers and should be easier on your fingerboard as well.

[black lake]

Originally Posted by Gio S

Try using the Elixir Nanoweb Strings - they are round and sound like round, but encased in a micro-thin Gore-Tex sleeve - they are easier on the fingers and should be easier on your fingerboard as well.

I have just put a set of these on my fretless (returning to round wound from flat wound), and I am digging the sound. I can't say how they will effect the wear of the fingerboard, but the sound makes it all worth while.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Like a fret dress, the fretless board can be resurfaced many times before replacement will be required. This is the way it has been done in the violin family of instruments since day one.

Bear in mind that violins and violas don't typically use metal strings. If they did, those fingerboard resurfacings would be required more frequently than they already are.

Originally Posted by 202dy

Those that argue for epoxy must remember that the epoxy (fiberglass, super glue, molten glass, whatever) will also wear and will require maintenance and filling.

True. If you consider that in the case of an epoxied board, it might need maintenance every 50-60 years or so. I own a fretless bass with an epoxied board, and I can tell you: it is extremely hard and durable. Nothing even close to the consistency and texture of the natural wood.

MM

[202dy]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

Bear in mind that violins and violas don't typically use metal strings. If they did, those fingerboard resurfacings would be required more frequently than they already are.

The violin family of instruments has been outfitted with metal wrapped strings for at least the last forty years. Very few players use "gut" strings today. You can also research D'Addario, Thomastik-Infeld, or any of the other folks who make strings for bowed instruments. You will find that the vast majority of the strings available will be nickel wrapped. Some of the orchestral strings are wrapped in stainless steel. There is a set for the violin called Old Fiddler made by Super Sensitive, one of the leading string manufacturers, that is round wound.

True. If you consider that in the case of an epoxied board, it might need maintenance every 50-60 years or so. I own a fretless bass with an epoxied board, and I can tell you: it is extremely hard and durable. Nothing even close to the consistency and texture of the natural wood.

MM

Interesting comment. Epoxies are not particularly abrasion resistant. If you were to research this site you will find more than a few threads that speak to the need for maintaining and even occasionally replacing an epoxy coat on a fingerboard. It makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Epoxy is a relatively soft, rubbery plastic. Guitar strings, even when flat wound, are made of hard nickel or steel. The string is far harder than the coating. Even flatwound strings are mildly abrasive. It is matter of time before the string will wear through the plastic. And this is the way it should be. If coatings, fingerboards, or frets are harder than the strings the strings will wear out in a very short period of time. The expense of replacing the strings would be monumental.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Epoxy is a relatively soft, rubbery plastic.

Sheer rubbish...

Originally Posted by 202dy

It is matter of time before the string will wear through the plastic.

Yes. A matter of many years. And again, it's not "plastic". It's epoxy. Quite a different substance altogether...

Originally Posted by 202dy

If coatings, fingerboards, or frets are harder than the strings the strings will wear out in a very short period of time. The expense of replacing the strings would be monumental.

No one is claiming that an epoxy coating is harder than metal strings. I certainly didn't say it. I said only that an epoxy coating is hard and durable. And it is.

I stand by my previous remarks...

MM

[Brad Johnson]

You can lower the action and possibly change the way you play. Wear is not inevitable, despite what some people will tell you.

The board on my 2002 Brubaker fretless looks almost like new, has been played by hundreds of people over the years and when I see them do something that causes damage, I let them know not to do it. The most obvious is pushing the strings across the fingerboard. It causes it to cut into the board... so don't do it. Use a vibrato that runs parallel with the board. Low action requires less pressure to sound a note, a bonus is that the strings meet the board at a less severe angle.

I get the same results on finished and unfinished boards.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

Sheer rubbish...



Yes. A matter of many years. And again, it's not "plastic". It's epoxy. Quite a different substance altogether...

Epoxy as a plastic:

"In 1939, I.G. Farben Industrie of Germany filed a patent for "polyepoxide" or "epoxy." Epoxies are a class of thermoset plastics that form cross-links and "cure" when a catalyzing agent, or "hardener," is added. After the war, they would come into wide use for coatings, "super glues," and composite materials."

cite: Packaging Today Bold added.

The next paragraph speaks to glass fiber and carbon fiber composites. Carbon fiber necks are a composite of epoxy resin and carbon fiber strands or sheet material. In other words, a plastic/carbon fiber composite. A simple search of the web will turn up more about the chemistry and history of plastics including epoxy resins.

No one is claiming that an epoxy coating is harder than metal strings. I certainly didn't say it. I said only that an epoxy coating is hard and durable. And it is.

I stand by my previous remarks...

MM

There is no question that epoxies are tough and durable. However, when leveling with scrapers or abrasives it is apparent that they are not hard and brittle. This is one of the reasons they make strong, gap filling adhesives. Your comment was that an epoxy coated fingerboard would be maintenance free for fifty to sixty years. Since wear is dependent on the number of hours of playing (abrasion) your assertion would be correct only for an instrument that will not be played very much. It is obvious that any fingerboard that is used on a regular basis will show damage to the coating. The amount and type of the damage is based on playing style and technique. For instance, those who chose to employ guitar style vibrato will quickly develop indentations that run perpendicular to the length of the fingerboard. Slapped and plucked, the coating will quickly wear at the bridge end of the fingerboard. Players who rarely play above the seventh fret will show wear faster than those who play all over the fingerboard.

In the shop, most of the coated fingerboards that were owned by semi-pro and pro players showed significant wear within two years. We did many touchups and several refinishes. Take the time to ask a few techs or luthiers and you will quickly be able to confirm this data.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

You can lower the action and possibly change the way you play. Wear is not inevitable, despite what some people will tell you.

The board on my 2002 Brubaker fretless looks almost like new, has been played by hundreds of people over the years and when I see them do something that causes damage, I let them know not to do it. The most obvious is pushing the strings across the fingerboard. It causes it to cut into the board... so don't do it. Use a vibrato that runs parallel with the board. Low action requires less pressure to sound a note, a bonus is that the strings meet the board at a less severe angle.

I get the same results on finished and unfinished boards.

Spot on.

Wear is a function of abrasion and use. A light hand and a technique consistent with preserving the finish will minimize damage to the coating or the fingerboard. In addition to finished and unfinished fingerboards, the same is true of frets. If a player uses a heavy touch or grinds the strings against the fret it wears much quicker than a light touch.

OTOH, thank goodness for the grinders for they keep the luthiers in business.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by 202dy

Spot on.

Wear is a function of abrasion and use. A light hand and a technique consistent with preserving the finish will minimize damage to the coating or the fingerboard. In addition to finished and unfinished fingerboards, the same is true of frets. If a player uses a heavy touch or grinds the strings against the fret it wears much quicker than a light touch.

Yep... I have 20-30 year old instruments with the original frets, still in fine condition.

OTOH, thank goodness for the grinders for they keep the luthiers in business.

This is true. The sad thing is that many believe they "have to" grind.

[202dy]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Yep... I have 20-30 year old instruments with the original frets, still in fine condition.



This is true. The sad thing is that many believe they "have to" grind.

That makes me smile. I have an instrument that I purchased used in 1974. It was the one that I used almost exclusively for twenty four years. Players look at the frets and accuse me of refretting it. The frets are original. There are some slight marks from experimenting with guitar vibrato but other than that it's probably good for another twenty four. And that is with relatively high action and the heaviest sets of strings available.

It's all in the hands.

[JonathanD]

Originally Posted by 202dy

That makes me smile. I have an instrument that I purchased used in 1974. It was the one that I used almost exclusively for twenty four years. Players look at the frets and accuse me of refretting it. The frets are original. There are some slight marks from experimenting with guitar vibrato but other than that it's probably good for another twenty four. And that is with relatively high action and the heaviest sets of strings available.

It's all in the hands.

Frets on bass wont last me 2 years before needing crowned.
I like the sound a bass has when its played hard. The pickups and strings react differently.

For fretless its going to be the same story. Unfortunately, I don't know how to sand down a fretboard.

I would suggest not compromising your playing style to avoid maintenance.

Jonathan

[elros]

On my fretless I use SIT Silencers which are sort of round wound but also sort of something else. I like them. Marketing speak from SIT:

As in the Silencer Acoustic String, this new Silencer breaks the barriers of electric bass string technology. The process of Inverse String Winding compresses the outermost part of the cover wrap leaving the internal structure of the string intact. Exclusive to S.I.T., this design produces a silky feel which is easier on your fingers and frets, but explodes with a round wound sound! - Perfect for fretless basses.

Also, the above mentioned freltess bass of mine has a stabilized ebony fingerboard (some phenolic resin treatment by Larry Davis at Gallery Hardwoods). Ebony is pretty hard to start with and this treatment is supposed to make it even harder. Still feels and looks like normal wood though. Works well so far.

[Rodent]

Originally Posted by Craig Bassman

The question is: what can I do to keep the fingerboard of the Schecter from getting damaged if I switch it back to roundwounds?

Simple - address the real root issue here and learn to play with a significantly lighter touch! Playing with "clamp hand syndrome" not only leads to increased wear on your bass' fingerboard, but it also leads to physical damage to your hand ... and you can't simply get your hand "dressed" when the problems are accute enough to cause you problems when playing


I'd recommend spending regular time woodshedding with your bass, specifically working on learning how little 'fretting' pressure is really required to properly execute a played note. practice playing with this lighter touch until you can consistently execute it, and then move forward to utilizing it in increasingly difficult passages that you play. give focus to utilizing it when you play live and resist the urge to tighten up and squeeze harder when you concentrate deeper.

besides the added benefit of less fingerboard wear you will also enjoy increased endurance and playing speed - even through very difficult passages. your new skills in economy of motion will result in better execution of the material you play, and better execution results in better tonal control with your fingers.


I also give a +100 to using nanowebs

all the best,

R

[gre107]

Just use nickel roundwounds and don't bend the strings just slide.
Other than that you should be fine for many years.

[Rodent]

Originally Posted by JonathanD

I like the sound a bass has when its played hard. The pickups and strings react differently.

there is a huge difference between playing hard (plucking the strings hard) and 'fretting' a bass hard (clamping the strings against the fretboard/fingerboard beyond the physical pressure required to properly execute a note). in the world of acoustic upright bass playing, too much 'fretting' pressure is referred to as "choking the notes" and is something that students spend great amounts of time on ... choking the notes actually robs tone from the played note, resulting in a less than optimal sounding bass line.

choking the notes when playing fretless gives you suck tone, and renders your bassline to sounding like a poorly executed fart


all the best,

R

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by JonathanD

Frets on bass wont last me 2 years before needing crowned.
I like the sound a bass has when its played hard. The pickups and strings react differently.

For fretless its going to be the same story. Unfortunately, I don't know how to sand down a fretboard.

I would suggest not compromising your playing style to avoid maintenance.

Jonathan

I didn't compromise anything. I refined my technique over the years.