Setup for more Mwah?

Poop-Loops · #1 05-03-2007, 04:15 PM

How do I setup (more less) my fretless for Mwah?

Right now, the best I can do is set my tone to all bass (roll off the treble on my bass), use the neck pickup (soap bar) and I have no idea how to set the action. If I set it too low, then I can't play higher up the neck (I don't play past the 12th fret, but I'm trying to learn some guitar parts on bass too, so it would be useful if it didn't sound like crap.)

Any ideas?

Poop-Loops · #2 05-03-2007, 04:32 PM

Actually, I just remembered: I wanted to get my action lower before, but I'd have to put a shim on my neck because I already have my saddles as low as they will go. Does cardboard make a good shim?

Poop-Loops · #3 05-03-2007, 04:56 PM

By the way, is this how I do it?

So, the purple part is the business card I plan to put in there. I will cut the width to fit the pocket, stick it against the bridge side of the pocket, and how far it extends to the other side of the pocket is irrelevent?

bgavin · #4 05-03-2007, 05:07 PM

Since you are asking these questions, please take your axe to a qualified tech.

Shimming the neck takes the strings higher off the board, not lower. The neck heel has to be planed down, or the pocket routed out. Neither is a job for the inexperienced.

Mwah comes from very low action, where the strings buzz on the board. You get better mwah from rounds at the expense of chewing up your board.

See the Mr.Gearhead section on Fender, for setup tips.

Poop-Loops · #5 05-03-2007, 08:05 PM

I already know how to set it up normally, I've done it to that bass and my other bass, and my three guitars. It's just that the saddles won't go any lower, so I can't lower the action. Relief is about right. I'll have to tighten the truss rod a bit more I think, but not enough that it will make a difference to the action.

jackson_bass · #6 05-03-2007, 08:24 PM

shimming the neck will have an effect on the string height, to a point. basically, everything should be set right. I have lowered the action on basses by shimming the neck, the shim is all the way toward the bridge in the pocket, of course. I believe that Stew Mac has some instruction, , , if I remember right. try the business card and see what you get, you can always take it out if it doesn't do what you want.

Poop-Loops · #7 05-03-2007, 08:55 PM

Weird. I unscrewed my neck and found a "band aid" type tape thing on it already. Kind of looks like someone wanted to shim it once already. =/

Oh well. I cut the business card to the point where it lines up with the end of the tape that was there.

Had to adjust my relief a bit afterwards. Now the action is lower, but I am getting buzzing where I was not before and still not nearly as much mwah as your random Youtube video.

Could it be my pickups? I have some active soap bars. Don't really want to replace them, but will if I have to. Also, would replacing the battery help? I don't think I have to (last time I had to, the sound would cut out, so I think it's still good), but I don't have any spares lying around, so I can't even check. =/

GlennW · #8 05-03-2007, 09:06 PM

Could be your pickups and/or strings. Have you tried the bridge pickup with the tone turned all the way down? That with TI flats might be a step in the direction you're after.

Shimming the neck shouldn't noticeably effect relief if the strings were tuned the same before and after. It would effect the action, but not the neck relief.

If I were you I'd go in this order (least expensive first):
1) action
2) tone pot/cap
3) strings
4) pickup

This assumes you already have the amp/speakers adjusted as well as possible to get the sound.

Poop-Loops · #9 05-03-2007, 09:12 PM

The relief was kind of big before, and the change in angle just made the relief stand out. So I made the neck flatter.

My strings are about 8 months old if that makes any difference. Maybe even older. I'm looking to buy some new ones, though. I wanted to get some 135's to get my low B as tight as possible. Will that reduce my mwah?

I'll look into the pots and cap, too. What values should I have? Don't worry, I'm competent enough to play around with those. I replaced a pot and pickups on my guitar and I've taken a few circuits classes at college.

bgavin · #10 05-04-2007, 08:07 AM

I setup my MIM-J fretless again last night after making a pickup change. Neck relief is very close to straight. The spec calls for 0.012" on this neck, and that ain't a whole lot.

I used business cards to set the action height at 0.093" bass and 0.078" treble, at the last fret marker. Strings are new DA Chrome Flats 45~100. Mwah is good.

IMO, mwah is in the strings/board, not the electronics.

Poop-Loops · #11 05-04-2007, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua

Were it me, I'd take the shim out, lock the relief down to a nice slender setting, then set the bridge saddles to their minimum point that still allows the notes to speak. At this point you will get a basic idea of the action (and mwah) that is obtainable with your basic setup, and can then decide if a shim is needed.

I did this first before ever considering unscrewing the neck. The saddles are as low as possible and there is still a lot of action.* I put the shim in and it did lower the action a bit. When I get home from school today I'll play around with it some more.

The thing is, though, that the action is so low now that some strings are buzzing. For example, the E string buzzes at around the 10th fret. The low B does not, which is weird. I guess I'll have to fine tune each saddle, but I am keeping the same curve of the strings as when I bought the bass.

*I think the pocket for the bridge was just routed wrong. I can't get my intonation right, because I can't pull the strings back any more (what I mean is the screws aren't long enough and I already have the saddles as far out as they will go). Could be that it wasn't routed deep enough, too. If I absolutely have to, I can use the school's milling machine to route the pocket slightly deeper, but I really don't want to do this because I don't have much experience.

Poop-Loops · #12 05-04-2007, 10:35 AM

Yeah, I know. And it's not the neck pocket that was routed bad. It's the bridge pocket. If it was half an inch closer to the neck, I could adjust my intonation better, and if it was routed in deeper, I could adjust my action better. But I can't do that at this point.

Jim Carr · #13 05-04-2007, 10:48 AM

Is this a LINED fretless?

Poop-Loops · #14 05-04-2007, 11:53 AM

Yes, it's the Dean.

No, it's unlined. Yeah, how can I tell whether or not the intonation is perfect, right? Well I can tell it's off from where I want it, i.e. in between the two side dots. It's only for the B and E strings, though. The other 3 aren't that bad.

Scalestein · #15 05-04-2007, 12:41 PM

may I inquire to what the follow up was to the lined or unlined question? Is it like he said just for the intonation?

synaesthesia · #16 05-04-2007, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgavin

IMO, mwah is in the strings/board, not the electronics.

Absolutely.

Long before the overuse of onomatopoeias, a 'mwah' was referred to as a fretless 'buzz'. Mike Pedulla therefore refers to his fretless bass model as the 'buzz' bass.

The desired sound is caused by the string buzzing against the fingerboard.

Consequently, the greater the board surface contact with the vibrating string under the finger, the greater the string buzz. A flatter neck relief certainly aids this, as does a low nut height and low saddle height; both saddle and nut heights in relation to the angle of the string to the fingerboard - the shallower the angle the better for 'mwah'. Raise your string action or nut height and you will find that your 'mwah' will consequently be less pronounced.

The Coral Electric Sitar designed by Vinnie Bell used a similar principle at the saddle, which was a flat plastic piece as opposed to a fulcrum point.

Turnaround · #17 05-05-2007, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poop-Loops

By the way, is this how I do it?

So, the purple part is the business card I plan to put in there. I will cut the width to fit the pocket, stick it against the bridge side of the pocket, and how far it extends to the other side of the pocket is irrelevent?

Nice looking bass!

Low action and very little relief (if any) is the general recipe for mwah. But that's not always true. I have played numerous Rob Allen fretless basses that sing like crazy (mwah) with a lot higher action and more relief than I would expect.

A lot of the mwah sound is in the mid range of the instrument. So boosting the mids often helps to bring it out.