Shimming neck pocket for Low Action?

[Suresh]

I am accustomed toplay at a very low action. Often I decline to buy a bass because they cant be set low enough, even after truss rod adjustments and loewering the the saddles to the optimum position. Than buzzes starts here and there, although the action is still too high for me.
I was wondering if shimming the neck pocket a fraction of a millimeter could help solve the problem without any "side effects", like floppyness,intonation,etc.
Does anyone ever done this?
any suggestions or experience will be greatly appreciated.
BTW, i am talking about bolt on basses.
thanks!
robert

[EagleMoon]

Sure. People do it all the time. Shouldn't affect intonation very much at all.

[electracoyote]

You will find a lot of people who find shimming the neck a perfectly acceptable practice. There are all kinds of strategies, different materials, etc. Personally, I hate doing it, if for no other reason than it compromises the neck heel-to-pocket relationship. I prefer a tight wood-to-wood contact. If a neck/body relationship is so bad that a shim is required, the guitar is flawed. Move on, there are plenty of good basses in the world that don't require shimming.

[thobbinghotrod]

You shim when the bridge saddles can't be moved any lower. (they are bottomed out). If they aren't out of their adjustability range then you won't gain anything.

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

You will find a lot of people who find shimming the neck a perfectly acceptable practice. There are all kinds of strategies, different materials, etc. Personally, I hate doing it, if for no other reason than it compromises the neck heel-to-pocket relationship. I prefer a tight wood-to-wood contact. If a neck/body relationship is so bad that a shim is required, the guitar is flawed. Move on, there are plenty of good basses in the world that don't require shimming.

+1

Back when I got my first fender, folks used to put a penny or two in there. Of course, everyone was also installing BAII bridges and those cream colored Dimarzio pickups, too...

Just get another bass.

[bassman_al]

Are the frets level? I recently had fret work done for a bass and it helped the action a lot. Now I have no dead spots, no buzzy frets, action at a good level.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by bassman_al

Are the frets level? I recently had fret work done for a bass and it helped the action a lot. Now I have no dead spots, no buzzy frets, action at a good level.

+1

Take the guitar to a good tech and be absolutely certain that the issue cannot be cured some other way. I would only consider shimming a neck if I had some psychotic emotional attachment to the bass.

[thobbinghotrod]

I don't think you guys realize that half of the basses out their are shimmed already, from the factory. You sound like it would be a crime to make an adjustment to an instrument.

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by thobbinghotrod

I don't think you guys realize that half of the basses out their are shimmed already, from the factory. You sound like it would be a crime to make an adjustment to an instrument.

half the basses?

I have never owned a new bass that came 'shimmed from the factory'.

[thobbinghotrod]

Have you looked in your neck pocket?

I don't think anyone is keeping a tally on this particular statistic but many are shimmed from the factory. My bass had a heavy piece of sandpaper as a shim.

[ErebusBass]

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

half the basses?

I have never owned a new bass that came 'shimmed from the factory'.

So you've taken the neck off of every instrument you've ever bought?

[dmusic148]

Believe it or not, my Modulus Q4 was shimmed from new. Factory shim.

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by ErebusBass

So you've taken the neck off of every instrument you've ever bought?

Not every one - but plenty (of those that are bolt-on). I don't recall seeing a single shim, not once, on fenders, G&Ls or EBMMS.

That doesn't mean it that it doesn't happen - but to say "almost all" is a pretty sweeping generalization.

[electracoyote]

As a matter of course, I take the neck off of every bolt-on bass I acquire sometime during the life of the instrument, first string change if not sooner. I have seen a couple of new basses that came from the factory with a shim. They were both cheap Asian made basses, and I didn't have them for long. A high end bass (like dmusic's Modulus) with a factory shim would have to be a rarity, and I would be personally offended if I bought a high-end bass shimmed in the factory. Part of the high-end price tag should include a neck/body relationship that precludes shimming. Just my .02 cents.

[JLS]

"You will find a lot of people who find shimming the neck a perfectly acceptable practice."

Like every repairperson in the world, maybe?

"If a neck/body relationship is so bad that a shim is required, the guitar is flawed"

Um, baloney.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by JLS

"You will find a lot of people who find shimming the neck a perfectly acceptable practice."

Like every repairperson in the world, maybe?

"If a neck/body relationship is so bad that a shim is required, the guitar is flawed"

Um, baloney.

My guitar techs don't find it acceptable. They find it appauling. They'll do it for the poor slob who asks for it, but it makes them shudder to think someone paid for a flawed bass.

Baloney? That would be your .02 cents worth.

It's a preference thing. Some people have low standards and can live with flaws. Some people can't.

Think about it for a minute: The tolerances for a well-matched neck heel to a body pocket are not that difficult to achieve. Any slight discrepancy can be compensated for with the height adjustments of the saddles. If, as the OP pointed out, you lower the saddles all the way and the action is still way high, someone in the factory is way off with the measurements. It's just that simple, and for me, my 3 guitar techs, and a lot of smart players out there, that's unacceptable. Stuffing a wad of something in between the neck and the pocket is a compromise at best. Yes, you get the tolerance back where it should have been in the factory, but you sacrifice the wood-to-wood contact of a well-fit neck. Why pay for a mistake? Keep buying crap, and they'll keep making it. But you have a choice. I say, move on, there are plenty of great basses out there, in all price points, that don't require shimming the neck.

[PBass101]

Personally, I'd love for any bass guitar I pick up to to have it capable for the lowest possible saddle adjustment (bottomed out) to set the strings perfectly flat against the frets of the neck, with no neck relief. That's just me - I love my action to be lower than most people think reasonable (and yes, I still sound good, thank you). One guitar technician called my action "already retarded low" when I asked him to put it lower. To each his own.

I've heard from several Status owners that SG basses are possible to set the strings almost barely touching the frets without a shim and zero neck relief, and that's what I hope to own someday. But until I can afford it (not all of us can just go out and buy another bass) - my Fender is going to be shimmed. And when I can afford a Status bass, hopefully sooner than later, the Fender will become a spare/practice bass.

Sorry to Fender lovers.

[rcarraher]

Originally Posted by Suresh

I am accustomed toplay at a very low action. Often I decline to buy a bass because they cant be set low enough, even after truss rod adjustments and loewering the the saddles to the optimum position. Than buzzes starts here and there, although the action is still too high for me.
I was wondering if shimming the neck pocket a fraction of a millimeter could help solve the problem without any "side effects", like floppyness,intonation,etc.
Does anyone ever done this?
any suggestions or experience will be greatly appreciated.
BTW, i am talking about bolt on basses.
thanks!
robert

I've had the necks of my 70's Fenders shimmed, they came with the "micro-tilt" screww for getting the angle right, but I don't like the sound or feel and a lutier years ago convinced me to get rid of the screw and shim it for the desired angle so I could get the action where I wanted it.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by rcarraher

I've had the necks of my 70's Fenders shimmed, they came with the "micro-tilt" screw for getting the angle right, but I don't like the sound or feel and a luthier years ago convinced me to get rid of the screw and shim it for the desired angle so I could get the action where I wanted it.

The microtilt feature involves the same principle I'm complaining about; a compromised neck-to-pocket fit. Microtilt creates a space between the neck and the pocket to "lift" the neck to a different angle. This from John Frondelli at The Telecaster Discussion Page: "Microtilt setups and shims CAN cause a warp condition known as 'rising tongue' over a long period of time. It is caused by pulling the heel down over an uneven surface, and is common in many Fender-style guitars." Significant loss of tone and sustain is another common result. As convenient and popular as the practice may seem, do some reading on the internet and you will find a lot of dissenting opinions from experienced techs and players about shims and microtilt.

[rcarraher]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

Interestingly, when Fender did their 70's Jazz reissues, the microtilt feature was no longer. That's partly because it's a pain in the butt, and it involves the same principle I'm complaining about; a compromised neck-to-pocket fit. Microtilt creates a space between the neck and the pocket to "lift" the neck to a different angle. This from John Frondelli at The Telecaster Discussion Page: "Microtilt setups and shims CAN cause a warp condition known as 'rising tongue' over a long period of time. It is caused by pulling the heel down over an uneven surface, and is common in many Fender-style guitars." Significant loss of tone and sustain is another common result. As convenient and popular as the practice may seem, do some reading on the internet and you will find a lot dissenting opinions from experienced techs and players about shims and microtilt.

My basses that have been shimmed have a "sliver or wedge" of wood cut to fit the neck pocket and marry to the back of the neck. To me anyways, it improves the stability of the neck as well as sustainand since I have a larger surface area of contact between the body and neck as opposed to the micro tilt screw. And it sure feels better than the micro tilt screw.